Why The Innocent Go To Prison On False Charges with Valena Beety | 347

Interview with Valena Beety

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Valena Beety: When Grief Becomes A Crime And Junk Science Wins 🔍💔🚨

Bruce Anthony: A federal prosecutor [00:00:01] walks into a courtroom [00:00:02] to protect women [00:00:03] and walks [00:00:04] out fighting to free [00:00:05] the ones the system [00:00:06] got wrong. [00:00:07] We gonna get [00:00:08] into it. [00:00:09] Let's get [00:00:10] it

[00:00:11] [00:00:12] [00:00:13] [00:00:14] [00:00:15] [00:00:16] [00:00:17] [00:00:18] [00:00:19] [00:00:20]

Bruce Anthony: [00:00:21] Welcome. First of [00:00:22] all, welcome. [00:00:23] This is Unsolicited [00:00:24] Perspectives. I am [00:00:25] your host, Bruce [00:00:26] Anthony, here to lead the [00:00:27] conversation in important [00:00:28] events and [00:00:29] topics that are shaping [00:00:30] today's society. [00:00:31] Join the [00:00:32] conversation and follow us [00:00:33] wherever you get your audio [00:00:34] podcasts. [00:00:35] Subscribe to our YouTube channel [00:00:36] for our video podcast, [00:00:37] YouTube exclusive [00:00:38] content, and our YouTube [00:00:39] membership.

[00:00:40] Rate, [00:00:41] review, like, [00:00:42] comment, [00:00:43] share. Share with your [00:00:44] friends, [00:00:45] share with your family. [00:00:46] Hell, even [00:00:47] share with your enemies. [00:00:48] On [00:00:49] today's [00:00:50] episode

I'm sitting down [00:00:51] with Valena Beety, [00:00:52] a law professor and [00:00:53] former federal [00:00:54] prosecutor who now [00:00:55] fights wrongful [00:00:56] convictions. We're [00:00:57] gonna be talking about [00:00:58] junk science, [00:00:59] women convicted of [00:01:00] crimes that never happened, [00:01:01] and who really [00:01:02] gets the benefit of a [00:01:03] doubt. But that's [00:01:04] enough of the intro. [00:01:05] Let's get to [00:01:06] the [00:01:07] show

[00:01:08] [00:01:09] [00:01:10] [00:01:11] [00:01:12] [00:01:13] [00:01:14] [00:01:15]

Bruce Anthony: I wanna start in [00:01:16] a hospital room [00:01:17] today. Think [00:01:18] about the worst day [00:01:19] a family can have [00:01:20] in one of those [00:01:21] rooms. [00:01:22] A pregnancy that doesn't [00:01:23] make it, [00:01:24] a baby who won't [00:01:25] wake up, [00:01:26] a parent [00:01:27] running their child through [00:01:28] their emergency room [00:01:29] doors, hands [00:01:30] shaking so [00:01:31] badly that they can't [00:01:32] even fill out [00:01:33] forms. [00:01:34] Now imagine that in the [00:01:35] middle of all that [00:01:36] grief, [00:01:37] the questions [00:01:38] change.

They [00:01:39] stop sounding like [00:01:40] somebody who cares [00:01:41] about you, [00:01:42] and start sounding like [00:01:43] somebody who's [00:01:44] building a case. [00:01:45] And before you even [00:01:46] understand what's [00:01:47] happening, your [00:01:48] loss is turned [00:01:49] into an [00:01:50] investigation, [00:01:51] and the prime [00:01:52] suspect [00:01:53] is you. [00:01:54] [00:01:55] This is not a [00:01:56] movie. [00:01:57] This is happening to [00:01:58] mothers, to [00:01:59] women, to queer [00:02:00] folks, and more [00:02:01] often than not, to [00:02:02] people who are already [00:02:03] poor, [00:02:04] already Black or [00:02:05] brown, and [00:02:06] already used to [00:02:07] not being [00:02:08] believed.[00:02:09]

Now, y'all know [00:02:10] me. I'm a

When The Justice System Decides Guilt Before Checking The Facts 👀🔍🤔

Bruce Anthony: Black [00:02:11] man. I'm a [00:02:12] minority [00:02:13] in this country. [00:02:14] I grew up with a [00:02:15] natural side eye [00:02:16] toward the system [00:02:17] because I learned [00:02:18] early on it [00:02:19] doesn't always work [00:02:20] the same for people who [00:02:21] look like me. [00:02:22] But most [00:02:23] Americans don't walk around [00:02:24] thinking that. [00:02:25] Most folks [00:02:26] figure that if [00:02:27] it made it to the [00:02:28] courtroom, the [00:02:29] evidence got checked [00:02:30] and the system did its [00:02:31] job.

[00:02:32] Except [00:02:33] sometimes [00:02:34] nobody checked. [00:02:35] [00:02:36] And I'm gonna [00:02:37] bring up something [00:02:38] that's [00:02:39] important. [00:02:40] [00:02:41] Protecting [00:02:42] kids is [00:02:43] absolutely [00:02:44] extremely important. [00:02:45] Y'all know Bruce [00:02:46] love the kids. [00:02:47] When a child gets [00:02:48] hurt, somebody [00:02:49] should be asking [00:02:50] these hard [00:02:51] and tough [00:02:52] questions. What [00:02:53] we're gonna be [00:02:54] examining today [00:02:55] is [00:02:56] w- the [00:02:57] problem [00:02:58] of [00:02:59] these people [00:03:00] that are [00:03:01] asking the hard [00:03:02] questions, but [00:03:03] they've already [00:03:04] decided [00:03:05] on what the [00:03:06] answer is.[00:03:07]

My [00:03:08] guest today is [00:03:09] Valena Beety. [00:03:10] Valena was a [00:03:11] federal [00:03:12] prosecutor in DC. She took that [00:03:13] job to protect women [00:03:14] from violence. [00:03:15] Then she [00:03:16] saw something from the [00:03:17] inside that made [00:03:18] her cross over and [00:03:19] spend her career [00:03:20] fighting wrongful [00:03:21] convictions. She [00:03:22] founded the West [00:03:23] Virginia Innocence Project, [00:03:24] and her work on [00:03:25] forensic evidence has [00:03:26] even been cited [00:03:27] by Supreme [00:03:28] Court justices.[00:03:29]

She [00:03:30] sat on both sides [00:03:31] of the courtroom, [00:03:32] and y'all know how [00:03:33] I feel. [00:03:34] I don't wanna be [00:03:35] right, I wanna be [00:03:36] correct. It takes [00:03:37] a certain [00:03:38] kind of person [00:03:39] to look back at the [00:03:40] side that they used to [00:03:41] be on [00:03:42] and say, [00:03:43] "Hmm, [00:03:44] we got some things [00:03:45] wrong." So [00:03:46] I'm really looking [00:03:47] forward to this [00:03:48] conversation. So [00:03:49] without further [00:03:50] ado, [00:03:51] Valena [00:03:52] [00:03:53] Beety As I said at the [00:03:54] top, I'm here with [00:03:55] Valena Beety, [00:03:56] the auth- of [00:03:57] Pink [00:03:58] Crime: Fighting Against the [00:03:59] Criminalization of [00:04:00] Motherhood, [00:04:01] Pregnancy, and Queer [00:04:02] Identity.[00:04:03]

Valena, thank you [00:04:04] so much for [00:04:05] coming on the show. [00:04:06] I talk [00:04:07] so much about [00:04:08] important [00:04:09] subjects [00:04:10] that [00:04:11] people miss [00:04:12] because the [00:04:13] algorithm gives [00:04:14] them puppies [00:04:15] and things that make [00:04:16] you happy, but there [00:04:17] are also serious [00:04:18] matters that, [00:04:19] uh, are affecting [00:04:20] everyday people [00:04:21] in society that [00:04:22] some people are just not [00:04:23] aware of, and we're gonna [00:04:24] be talking about it today, [00:04:25] so I'm so thankful to have [00:04:26] you on the show

Valena Beety: [00:04:27] Ah, thanks for having me[00:04:28]

Bruce Anthony: [00:04:29] Absolutely.

I start [00:04:30] every [00:04:31] [00:04:32] interview with one [00:04:33] question. Let's [00:04:34] go back. I [00:04:35] wanna go back to the [00:04:36] beginning. Tell me what it was [00:04:37] like growing up [00:04:38] in [00:04:39] Indianapolis. Tell me about [00:04:40] your family. [00:04:41] Uh, tell [00:04:42] me about your [00:04:43] upbringing and how [00:04:44] it shaped [00:04:45] you to become the person [00:04:46] that you are today

Valena Beety: [00:04:47] Hmm. [00:04:48] Uh, I'll try to [00:04:49] keep it short.[00:04:50]

Bruce Anthony: You can keep it [00:04:51] as long as you [00:04:52] want. This,

Hoosier Roots: A GM Family And The Lesson That Life Isn't Fair 🏭🍎💪

Bruce Anthony: this [00:04:53] episode is [00:04:54] about you and your [00:04:55] work

Valena Beety: common [00:04:56] too. [00:04:57] So, uh, yeah, I grew [00:04:58] up, uh, just [00:04:59] outside of Indy. [00:05:00] [00:05:01] Both of my parents are [00:05:02] Hoosiers, so I'm a [00:05:03] Hoosier, [00:05:04] and my dad and my [00:05:05] granddad worked for [00:05:06] General Motors. [00:05:07] Uh, and then [00:05:08] my mom [00:05:09] was a public school teacher [00:05:10] in Indianapolis Public [00:05:11] School System. [00:05:12] So they [00:05:13] both taught me [00:05:14] that it really [00:05:15] matters, uh, [00:05:16] working hard, [00:05:17] uh, and [00:05:18] being known as a [00:05:19] hard worker.

[00:05:20] Uh, but they also [00:05:21] taught me that [00:05:22] life [00:05:23] isn't fair and [00:05:24] the world isn't fair, and [00:05:25] you can work hard [00:05:26] and [00:05:27] still not [00:05:28] be treated [00:05:29] fairly. Uh, so my [00:05:30] mom in particular [00:05:31] always taught [00:05:32] me to [00:05:33] be able to look out for [00:05:34] myself, to be able to f- [00:05:35] support [00:05:36] myself [00:05:37] and to [00:05:38] always look out for [00:05:39] others, to, to [00:05:40] be aware of that, [00:05:41] you know, that [00:05:42] again, there are other [00:05:43] people who are fighting [00:05:44] just as hard as I am [00:05:45] and working just as hard as [00:05:46] I am and [00:05:47] aren't [00:05:48] gonna get the [00:05:49] same breaks, [00:05:50] uh, [00:05:51] and aren't gonna be [00:05:52] treated fairly, [00:05:53] just like could happen [00:05:54] to me.

Uh, so [00:05:55] that, you know, [00:05:56] that's, that was kind of the [00:05:57] mindset growing up[00:05:58]

Bruce Anthony: [00:05:59] So [00:06:00] your parents [00:06:01] imprint this [00:06:02] on you. [00:06:03] They, they, they [00:06:04] give you the [00:06:05] wisdom to say, "Hey, [00:06:06] look, you gotta [00:06:07] work hard, but life [00:06:08] isn't always [00:06:09] fair, and [00:06:10] sometimes [00:06:11] life isn't fair to other [00:06:12] people." [00:06:13] Can-- Were there... [00:06:14] Can you give [00:06:15] me an [00:06:16] example of [00:06:17] growing up where [00:06:18] you saw [00:06:19] the words that your [00:06:20] parents said to you, [00:06:21] but then you saw it [00:06:22] in real life [00:06:23] outside of [00:06:24] your parents?

Like [00:06:25] it was you [00:06:26] that were like, "Oh, [00:06:27] this is what my parents were [00:06:28] talking about."[00:06:29]

Valena Beety: [00:06:30] Mm. I [00:06:31] think [00:06:32] you know, [00:06:33] a lot of-- There [00:06:34] were-- My mom [00:06:35] taught child [00:06:36] development. Uh, she was [00:06:37] a home economics [00:06:38] teacher, and so that was [00:06:39] one of the classes that she [00:06:40] taught, [00:06:41] which I think [00:06:42] is great, you know, [00:06:43] that she was teaching [00:06:44] high schoolers how to [00:06:45] take care of [00:06:46] kids. [00:06:47] So [00:06:48] she had a number [00:06:49] of pregnant [00:06:50] girls and [00:06:51] young [00:06:52] moms in her classes, [00:06:53] [00:06:54] and she would [00:06:55] take a number of [00:06:56] them kinda under her [00:06:57] wing and look out for them [00:06:58] and how they could [00:06:59] support each other, [00:07:00] right?

'Cause if [00:07:01] you're, you know, [00:07:02] kinda feeling on your [00:07:03] own, uh, [00:07:04] and you're [00:07:05] a new mom, [00:07:06] there's nothing more [00:07:07] important than [00:07:08] being able to have other [00:07:09] people who, uh, [00:07:10] can connect [00:07:11] with you, that you can-- [00:07:12] even if it's the [00:07:13] other new moms that you're in [00:07:14] the class with, that you [00:07:15] can [00:07:16] connect on how can [00:07:17] we look after our kids [00:07:18] together?

How can we [00:07:19] keep going to school? [00:07:20] How can we, [00:07:21] uh, make sure [00:07:22] to, you know, [00:07:23] graduate? [00:07:24] [00:07:25] And [00:07:26] it [00:07:27] really [00:07:28] just-- [00:07:29] That really [00:07:30] impressed on me. You know, [00:07:31] I did not have a [00:07:32] kid when I was, [00:07:33] uh, in high [00:07:34] school, [00:07:35] and that [00:07:36] [00:07:37] it could just [00:07:38] change your [00:07:39] path so much, [00:07:40] and not having people [00:07:41] there to support you, [00:07:42] and then [00:07:43] having to choose [00:07:44] between going to [00:07:45] school and looking [00:07:46] after your own, [00:07:47] you know, small [00:07:48] family now.

[00:07:49] Uh, I didn't have to [00:07:50] face that, and I [00:07:51] saw [00:07:52] my mom [00:07:53] trying to [00:07:54] both [00:07:55] support [00:07:56] those, those young women [00:07:57] and [00:07:58] to help them [00:07:59] figure out how to support [00:08:00] themselves. Uh, [00:08:01] so I'd say that was [00:08:02] one way that it [00:08:03] really [00:08:04] showed through for [00:08:05] me.

Bruce Anthony: So [00:08:06] you grow [00:08:07] up [00:08:08] and you are [00:08:09] looking [00:08:10] at, [00:08:11] [00:08:12] how [00:08:13] society is [00:08:14] different for [00:08:15] some people [00:08:16] and how some people [00:08:17] have to make these [00:08:18] tough decisions. [00:08:19] And then [00:08:20] you go to [00:08:21] school and you [00:08:22] become a [00:08:23] prosecutor, but you become a [00:08:24] prosecutor for a [00:08:25] very specific [00:08:26] reason, is to [00:08:27] protect women from [00:08:28] violence. [00:08:29] [00:08:30] One, [00:08:31] how did you get to that?[00:08:32]

And then [00:08:33] two, what did you see [00:08:34] from the inside [00:08:35] that [00:08:36] eventually made you [00:08:37] switch sides?[00:08:38] [00:08:39]

Valena Beety: [00:08:40] Yeah. [00:08:41] So [00:08:42] in high school too, I [00:08:43] also saw [00:08:44] sexual [00:08:45] violence, domestic [00:08:46] violence. [00:08:47] Uh, and when I was in college, [00:08:48] I became [00:08:49] a rape victim [00:08:50] advocate [00:08:51] across the city of [00:08:52] Chicago. So I was [00:08:53] on call for different [00:08:54] hospitals in [00:08:55] Chicago to go and [00:08:56] be there [00:08:57] as an [00:08:58] advocate for a survivor who [00:08:59] comes into the [00:09:00] emergency room.

[00:09:01] And through that [00:09:02] experience, [00:09:03] I decided [00:09:04] I wanted to go to law [00:09:05] school, and I [00:09:06] wanted to be a [00:09:07] prosecutor, and I wanted [00:09:08] to prosecute [00:09:09] these [00:09:10] really [00:09:11] tough sex [00:09:12] offenses, [00:09:13] because there's a [00:09:14] number of sex offenders [00:09:15] who [00:09:16] repeatedly [00:09:17] harm people. [00:09:18] And so my [00:09:19] thought was, [00:09:20] "Okay, [00:09:21] if that [00:09:22] person is [00:09:23] locked up, then they're not [00:09:24] gonna harm others.

That's [00:09:25] gonna stop cycles of [00:09:26] violence." [00:09:27] So I think in the [00:09:28] language we'd use [00:09:29] today, I was a, [00:09:30] a carceral [00:09:31] feminist. I [00:09:32] really thought that [00:09:33] prison would, would [00:09:34] solve, [00:09:35] would [00:09:36] solve some of those [00:09:37] problems. [00:09:38] So I went to law [00:09:39] school. I [00:09:40] got my dream job. [00:09:41] I became a [00:09:42] prosecutor. [00:09:43] Uh, and [00:09:44] I [00:09:45] realized through [00:09:46] doing the job, [00:09:47] uh, that [00:09:48] we weren't [00:09:49] necessarily, at least in my [00:09:50] office, we weren't [00:09:51] looking out for [00:09:52] survivors.

Her Office Jailed Survivors Who Refused To Testify In Court 😳🚔🔒

Valena Beety: Uh, [00:09:53] if a [00:09:54] survivor didn't wanna be [00:09:55] involved in the case [00:09:56] or didn't wanna [00:09:57] testify, [00:09:58] uh, we had a [00:09:59] practice of [00:10:00] [00:10:01] arresting that person [00:10:02] and detaining them in [00:10:03] jail [00:10:04] before the [00:10:05] hearing or [00:10:06] before trial to make [00:10:07] sure that they would show [00:10:08] up, right?[00:10:09]

[00:10:10] Uh, I, I know. I [00:10:11] know. It's [00:10:12] wild. It's [00:10:13] wild

Bruce Anthony: wanna [00:10:14] make sure [00:10:15] for me and the [00:10:16] audience that I heard [00:10:17] you clearly. [00:10:18] [00:10:19] The [00:10:20] victim of the [00:10:21] crime, [00:10:22] [00:10:23] and, and [00:10:24] we know [00:10:25] with [00:10:26] assault, sexual [00:10:27] assaults, that, uh, [00:10:28] one, a lot of times [00:10:29] they're, they're not [00:10:30] reported, and two, [00:10:31] even if they [00:10:32] are reported, it [00:10:33] becomes [00:10:34] traumatic for the, for the [00:10:35] victim to [00:10:36] relive

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:10:37] Yeah[00:10:38]

Bruce Anthony: So you're [00:10:39] saying that in [00:10:40] your office, [00:10:41] 'cause you can't speak for all [00:10:42] offices, but for [00:10:43] your office, [00:10:44] you would [00:10:45] actually [00:10:46] arrest the [00:10:47] victim if they [00:10:48] didn't want [00:10:49] to take the [00:10:50] stand?

Valena Beety: [00:10:51] Mm-hmm. [00:10:52] So that the [00:10:53] day before you [00:10:54] knew [00:10:55] that you would be able [00:10:56] to bring them [00:10:57] in for [00:10:58] the hearing. [00:10:59] Oh, yeah. [00:11:00] And those are the [00:11:01] things that just get [00:11:02] normalized. [00:11:03] You know, it's like, "Oh, this [00:11:04] is just what we [00:11:05] do." [00:11:06] [00:11:07] [00:11:08] so that, [00:11:09] that would [00:11:10] happen. [00:11:11] So clearly [00:11:12] when [00:11:13] when survivors [00:11:14] didn't wanna be involved in the [00:11:15] case or wanted [00:11:16] it dropped, it [00:11:17] didn't matter, [00:11:18] right?

It was our [00:11:19] decision as the [00:11:20] government, as [00:11:21] prosecutors to, [00:11:22] to decide on [00:11:23] that. And then [00:11:24] we also didn't [00:11:25] consider what [00:11:26] the survivor [00:11:27] would [00:11:28] want as, like, [00:11:29] what would make them [00:11:30] whole. [00:11:31]

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Valena Beety: [00:11:32] we just [00:11:33] tried to get criminal [00:11:34] charges. But at the same [00:11:35] time, [00:11:36] you know, I saw us [00:11:37] having really [00:11:38] serious [00:11:39] cases, [00:11:40] really seriously [00:11:41] violent cases.

[00:11:42] And [00:11:43] again, the [00:11:44] office would encourage [00:11:45] us to drop those [00:11:46] down to a [00:11:47] misdemeanor offense, which [00:11:48] means the [00:11:49] maximum time you [00:11:50] can get is a year. [00:11:51] [00:11:52] Because the idea [00:11:53] was [00:11:54] misdemeanor cases, you [00:11:55] don't have to go before a [00:11:56] jury. [00:11:57] And a [00:11:58] jury is gonna think this [00:11:59] is just a he said, she [00:12:00] said. [00:12:01] Uh, they're not [00:12:02] gonna, you know, [00:12:03] rule against [00:12:04] the defendant.

[00:12:05] So take it [00:12:06] down to a [00:12:07] misdemeanor, and then you can [00:12:08] get the win. [00:12:09] But [00:12:10] what does the win [00:12:11] matter if the win [00:12:12] is three months in [00:12:13] prison? We [00:12:14] know that prison [00:12:15] is [00:12:16] criminogenic, meaning people are [00:12:17] more likely to commit [00:12:18] crimes once [00:12:19] they've been to prison. [00:12:20] So what [00:12:21] is that doing? Again, [00:12:22] my, my [00:12:23] beginning goal was [00:12:24] to stop these [00:12:25] cycles of violence, [00:12:26] and this was doing [00:12:27] very [00:12:28] little to [00:12:29] actually [00:12:30] meet that goal [00:12:31] and also [00:12:32] was, I thought, [00:12:33] harming survivors [00:12:34] in the process.[00:12:35]

So [00:12:36] yeah, I [00:12:37] didn't know that until I [00:12:38] started doing the job. [00:12:39] And I also didn't [00:12:40] know, and [00:12:41] this is again not all [00:12:42] police, but I [00:12:43] also didn't know, [00:12:44] you know, [00:12:45] personally, [00:12:46] uh, [00:12:47] that yeah, [00:12:48] police will just lie. [00:12:49] [00:12:50] So kind of [00:12:51] figuring that out and [00:12:52] like how to... I [00:12:53] mean, I know [00:12:54] I sound very naive [00:12:55] on

that

Bruce Anthony: no, no, [00:12:56] no, no. I'm not, [00:12:57] I'm not-- That [00:12:58] face wasn't [00:12:59] because I think you're [00:13:00] naive, [00:13:01] uh, because I [00:13:02] think the majority [00:13:03] of people [00:13:04] believe in [00:13:05] the system [00:13:06] even... [00:13:07] especially when you're [00:13:08] working in the [00:13:09] system. Uh, [00:13:10] my [00:13:11] thing is you are [00:13:12] outright [00:13:13] saying that they [00:13:14] will lie.[00:13:15]

Cops Lining Up Their Stories Before The Prosecutor Ever Asks 🚨🤥👮

Valena Beety: Yeah[00:13:16]

Bruce Anthony: Lie [00:13:17] like in how? [00:13:18] And when you [00:13:19] downgrade-- I have so [00:13:20] many questions now, [00:13:21] and I know that I'm [00:13:22] detouring from, from the, [00:13:23] what the structure of the [00:13:24] ep- uh, this [00:13:25] interview was gonna be, [00:13:26] but I [00:13:27] have two questions that [00:13:28] I just, I have to get [00:13:29] answered.

One, [00:13:30] like how [00:13:31] severe [00:13:32] of a [00:13:33] felony would [00:13:34] be downgraded to [00:13:35] a misdemeanor? [00:13:36] And the cops [00:13:37] would lie, [00:13:38] like [00:13:39] how?[00:13:40]

A- a- and is [00:13:41] this all [00:13:42] just to [00:13:43] get [00:13:44] clearances [00:13:45] so that their [00:13:46] stats look good? [00:13:47] You know, I'm out here [00:13:48] in DC, I watch "The [00:13:49] Wire," [00:13:50] so I know something [00:13:51] about cooking the [00:13:52] books and stats [00:13:53] only from "The [00:13:54] Wire." But [00:13:55] is, [00:13:56] is that really what [00:13:57] it's, the, what they're [00:13:58] doing in those [00:13:59] cases?

Valena Beety: Uh, [00:14:00] so I'm gonna, I'm [00:14:01] gonna watch [00:14:02] myself.

Bruce Anthony: Okay[00:14:03]

Valena Beety: [00:14:04] Uh, so I [00:14:05] did both. [00:14:06] I did domestic violence, [00:14:07] I did sexual violence, [00:14:08] and I did drug [00:14:09] offenses [00:14:10] and, [00:14:11] [00:14:12] [00:14:13] armed with a [00:14:14] weapon while [00:14:15] drug [00:14:16] distribution, et cetera. [00:14:17] So it was [00:14:18] more in [00:14:19] the kinda [00:14:20] drug offense [00:14:21] armed [00:14:22] weapon, uh, [00:14:23] cases [00:14:24] where, [00:14:25] yeah, I [00:14:26] mean, police [00:14:27] would, [00:14:28] [00:14:29] uh, [00:14:30] [00:14:31] collaborate to make sure [00:14:32] that their [00:14:33] individual stories [00:14:34] matched.[00:14:35]

I actually [00:14:36] had a [00:14:37] supervisor when I was [00:14:38] like: Hey, look, they all [00:14:39] got different stories [00:14:40] about what happened [00:14:41] and where were the [00:14:42] drugs and where'd they [00:14:43] find them, and what [00:14:44] happened with the [00:14:45] defendant, and why [00:14:46] did the defendant have these [00:14:47] injuries? You know, they all [00:14:48] have different stories about [00:14:49] it. [00:14:50] And [00:14:51] I had a supervisor who [00:14:52] said, "Oh, [00:14:53] why are you talking to [00:14:54] them separately?[00:14:55]

You [00:14:56] should have all of [00:14:57] them in the room together [00:14:58] when you talk with them." [00:14:59] [00:15:00] Which is... [00:15:01] [00:15:02] I've said that to other [00:15:03] prosecutors, and they've been [00:15:04] shocked, [00:15:05] okay? So I [00:15:06] like to think that [00:15:07] there's definitely other [00:15:08] offices where, [00:15:09] [00:15:10] you know, they would, [00:15:11] they would be [00:15:12] appalled by that. [00:15:13] Uh, but that's [00:15:14] just kind of a sign [00:15:15] of, of [00:15:16] [00:15:17] the culture of [00:15:18] the office I was working [00:15:19] in.

Bruce Anthony: Okay. [00:15:20] I'm [00:15:21] hearing you [00:15:22] as you're [00:15:23] describing the [00:15:24] culture of the office that you're [00:15:25] working in, and I [00:15:26] have a coup- [00:15:27] couple of [00:15:28] questions. [00:15:29] One, [00:15:30] how long did you [00:15:31] work in the office? [00:15:32] And two, how [00:15:33] long was it [00:15:34] working in that [00:15:35] office that you [00:15:36] decided, "You know what? [00:15:37] I'm gonna go [00:15:38] ahead and switch [00:15:39] [00:15:40] sides"?[00:15:41]

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:15:42]

Levon Brooks And The Mom Who Could Finally Put Her Hammer Down 🔨🙏💔

Valena Beety: So I [00:15:43] was there, [00:15:44] you know, a little over a [00:15:45] year, so not that long. [00:15:46] Uh, [00:15:47] and [00:15:48] a friend of [00:15:49] mine worked at [00:15:50] the New [00:15:51] Orleans Innocence [00:15:52] Project, so he [00:15:53] investigated if people were [00:15:54] wrongly convicted, [00:15:55] uh, in [00:15:56] Louisiana and New Orleans. [00:15:57] Uh, [00:15:58] and [00:15:59] I was [00:16:00] unhappy about my [00:16:01] job. [00:16:02] I was not [00:16:03] happy. [00:16:04] Uh, and [00:16:05] he told me about this [00:16:06] opening at [00:16:07] the Mississippi [00:16:08] Innocence Project, [00:16:09] uh, [00:16:10] to hire a [00:16:11] staff attorney.[00:16:12]

[00:16:13] And, you know, I'm [00:16:14] from the [00:16:15] Midwest. [00:16:16] Uh, I had never lived in the [00:16:17] Deep South, [00:16:18] and I was like, [00:16:19] "Am I really [00:16:20] gonna, am I really gonna [00:16:21] make that move?" [00:16:22] but I [00:16:23] went down. I went down [00:16:24] for an interview, [00:16:25] and they wanted me to stay for a [00:16:26] couple days to really [00:16:27] get a feel for it. [00:16:28] So, [00:16:29] I [00:16:30] did. Uh, [00:16:31] got to meet folks. [00:16:32] And [00:16:33] then, [00:16:34] uh, [00:16:35] they-- the [00:16:36] project [00:16:37] [00:16:38] [00:16:39] Whoo!

And I [00:16:40] think we're gonna talk [00:16:41] about Levon [00:16:42] Brooks and Kenny Brewer a little [00:16:43] bit [00:16:44] and their wrongful [00:16:45] convictions [00:16:46] [00:16:47] due to bite marks, due to [00:16:48] bogus bite marks. [00:16:49] But [00:16:50] Levon Brooks had just [00:16:51] gotten out of prison, [00:16:52] uh, within the [00:16:53] past year, [00:16:54] uh, and he had [00:16:55] served many years [00:16:56] for a crime he [00:16:57] did not [00:16:58] commit, uh, I [00:16:59] think nearly 20 [00:17:00] years. [00:17:01] And [00:17:02] here he is, [00:17:03] and [00:17:04] he's out, [00:17:05] again, less than a year, [00:17:06] and his mom [00:17:07] dies.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.[00:17:08]

Valena Beety: [00:17:09] And his mom had [00:17:10] advocated for him [00:17:11] for all those [00:17:12] years. [00:17:13] So they were [00:17:14] having a funeral, [00:17:15] and the Mississippi [00:17:16] Innocence Project folks [00:17:17] were going, [00:17:18] and I mean, of course [00:17:19] they were. [00:17:20] And so they asked if I [00:17:21] wanted to go, too. [00:17:22] [00:17:23] Uh, [00:17:24] and I said [00:17:25] yes. Uh, [00:17:26] even though I was like, [00:17:27] this is...

[00:17:28] You know, I'm [00:17:29] prosecuting people [00:17:30] right now, and [00:17:31] here's this man [00:17:32] who was [00:17:33] wrongly prosecuted, [00:17:34] wrongly [00:17:35] convicted. Uh, should [00:17:36] I even be [00:17:37] there?

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:17:38]

Valena Beety: But I [00:17:39] went, [00:17:40] [00:17:41] and we drove [00:17:42] down. [00:17:43] And [00:17:44] folks were [00:17:45] really-- [00:17:46] [00:17:47] When, you know, we [00:17:48] were eating and [00:17:49] the people were really [00:17:50] welcoming and kind, [00:17:51] and I got to talk with [00:17:52] Levon. [00:17:53] And I [00:17:54] remember saying, you know, [00:17:55] "You must be [00:17:56] so [00:17:57] angry, [00:17:58] you know, that [00:17:59] you finally get [00:18:00] out and [00:18:01] now your mom [00:18:02] passes, [00:18:03] uh, after all those [00:18:04] years of her [00:18:05] fighting for you."[00:18:06]

And he [00:18:07] said, [00:18:08] "She [00:18:09] could finally put her hammer [00:18:10] down. You know, [00:18:11] she had fought for me, [00:18:12] and she saw me [00:18:13] freed."

Bruce Anthony: [00:18:14] Mm-hmm.

Valena Beety: And [00:18:15] that really [00:18:16] stuck with me. [00:18:17] Uh, and I was like, [00:18:18] "This is the work I need to be [00:18:19] doing. This [00:18:20] is, this is what I [00:18:21] want to be part of." [00:18:22] It just felt so [00:18:23] much the opposite [00:18:24] of what I was [00:18:25] doing as a [00:18:26] prosecutor.

[00:18:27] Uh, and so I did [00:18:28] it. I, [00:18:29] I got the offer. [00:18:30] I accepted, and [00:18:31] I, I moved down [00:18:32] to [00:18:33] Mississippi [00:18:34] and lived there for a couple [00:18:35] years. [00:18:36] [00:18:37]

Why Prosecutors Said No To DNA Testing Every Time She Asked 🧬🚫🤨

[00:18:38]

Bruce Anthony: What does it [00:18:39] take? I [00:18:40] always say I don't wanna [00:18:41] be [00:18:42] right, I wanna be [00:18:43] correct. I think those are two [00:18:44] very, very [00:18:45] different things. What [00:18:46] does it take to, to [00:18:47] change your mind? It, it, [00:18:48] it seems like it, [00:18:49] it, it [00:18:50] took a [00:18:51] [00:18:52] variety of [00:18:53] factors for [00:18:54] you to get [00:18:55] to the place from [00:18:56] going to [00:18:57] prosecute... from being a [00:18:58] prosecutor [00:18:59] to [00:19:00] helping [00:19:01] the wrongfully [00:19:02] convicted.[00:19:03]

What [00:19:04] does it change [00:19:05] in your [00:19:06] mind when someone's [00:19:07] freedom is on the line?[00:19:08]

Valena Beety: [00:19:09] Yeah. [00:19:10] I love that you asked [00:19:11] that because [00:19:12] as a [00:19:13] former prosecutor, [00:19:14] [00:19:15] I would take on [00:19:16] these wrongful conviction [00:19:17] cases, and [00:19:18] I [00:19:19] believed [00:19:20] passionately in them because I knew [00:19:21] them deeply. I [00:19:22] knew the evidence of [00:19:23] innocence. It is [00:19:24] so much harder, [00:19:25] so much harder [00:19:26] to reverse a [00:19:27] conviction [00:19:28] than for a prosecutor to [00:19:29] get a conviction in the first [00:19:30] place.

And I [00:19:31] say that speaking from [00:19:32] experience. [00:19:33] And [00:19:34] so I would [00:19:35] go to [00:19:36] prosecutors and [00:19:37] say, "Will you agree to [00:19:38] DNA testing?" [00:19:39] And [00:19:40] every single [00:19:41] time, [00:19:42] every single [00:19:43] time, the prosecutor [00:19:44] would say no. [00:19:45] [00:19:46] Prosecutor would say, [00:19:47] "You have to go to [00:19:48] court, you have to [00:19:49] litigate for this, you have to [00:19:50] ask a court to do [00:19:51] this," every [00:19:52] single time. [00:19:53] And [00:19:54] I, [00:19:55] I was surprised by that [00:19:56] because I thought, [00:19:57] okay, if you're a [00:19:58] prosecutor, [00:19:59] then [00:20:00] hopefully you're [00:20:01] confident in the conviction [00:20:02] and confident [00:20:03] enough [00:20:04] that you're like, "Sure, do [00:20:05] the DNA testing. [00:20:06] That's going to [00:20:07] prove that the person is [00:20:08] guilty." But if [00:20:09] you have [00:20:10] questions, [00:20:11] then you should [00:20:12] want to [00:20:13] know that [00:20:14] someone is [00:20:15] innocent who's in [00:20:16] prison, someone's [00:20:17] wrongfully [00:20:18] convicted.

And with [00:20:19] Levon's case, [00:20:20] fact that [00:20:21] he and Kenny were both [00:20:22] wrongly convicted [00:20:23] meant that the true [00:20:24] perpetrator [00:20:25] continued to be, [00:20:26] [00:20:27] out in the [00:20:28] world and continued to be [00:20:29] harming people. We [00:20:30] know that for a [00:20:31] fact. [00:20:32] So I was [00:20:33] [00:20:34] surprised how hard [00:20:35] it was to [00:20:36] change the [00:20:37] minds of [00:20:38] prosecutors, that they [00:20:39] wouldn't even [00:20:40] agree to the DNA [00:20:41] testing.

And then you have [00:20:42] prosecutors, even when you [00:20:43] have the DNA evidence, [00:20:44] they still [00:20:45] say, [00:20:46] "Nope, there's gotta [00:20:47] be a way that this [00:20:48] person is guilty." [00:20:49] Or they change the [00:20:50] theory of the case. [00:20:51] "Oh, [00:20:52] well, maybe [00:20:53] there was an [00:20:54] unnamed, [00:20:55] unknown [00:20:56] second person who [00:20:57] they assisted." [00:20:58] [00:20:59] and you know, the worst [00:21:00] part now is [00:21:01] that even when [00:21:02] prosecutors do [00:21:03] agree, we have [00:21:04] judges now [00:21:05] who say, [00:21:06] "Nope, we have to [00:21:07] have an [00:21:08] adversarial system.[00:21:09]

If the prosecutor and the [00:21:10] defense both agree to [00:21:11] reverse someone's [00:21:12] conviction, [00:21:13] then I'm gonna [00:21:14] appoint someone [00:21:15] else to fight [00:21:16] against this, [00:21:17] because there has to be [00:21:18] someone fighting [00:21:19] against the, the

Ego, Pride Or Tunnel Vision? Why Prosecutors Fight Reversals 🎯🧠😤

Valena Beety: [00:21:20] reversal."[00:21:21]

Bruce Anthony: Uh, [00:21:22] okay. Uh, [00:21:23] so [00:21:24] [00:21:25] why would... [00:21:26] I'm [00:21:27] coming from a, a [00:21:28] point, like I said, I'd [00:21:29] rather be [00:21:30] correct rather than [00:21:31] right. So [00:21:32] what, what [00:21:33] is it-- [00:21:34] And I'm not doing this [00:21:35] for all prosecutors, [00:21:36] 'cause I'm [00:21:37] sure there are some [00:21:38] cases where [00:21:39] prosecutors were [00:21:40] like, "Ah, [00:21:41] yeah, I had some [00:21:42] doubts about this. Let's, [00:21:43] let's [00:21:44] work on this together."[00:21:45]

But you're [00:21:46] saying that the [00:21:47] majority of the [00:21:48] time that they are [00:21:49] fighting against this. [00:21:50] Is [00:21:51] it just, [00:21:52] is it [00:21:53] ego? Is it [00:21:54] pride? Is it, [00:21:55] uh, a, [00:21:56] a, a [00:21:57] reversal of a [00:21:58] conviction looks [00:21:59] bad on their, [00:22:00] on their [00:22:01] rep? What, what [00:22:02] is it [00:22:03] that [00:22:04] [00:22:05] forces these [00:22:06] prosecutors [00:22:07] to say no? [00:22:08] And [00:22:09] why is it [00:22:10] so much harder [00:22:11] to reverse a [00:22:12] conviction rather than [00:22:13] to get a [00:22:14] conviction?

Valena Beety: Hmm. [00:22:15] Yeah. So I think it's [00:22:16] all of those things [00:22:17] that lead [00:22:18] prosecutors to [00:22:19] push back [00:22:20] on, [00:22:21] [00:22:22] [00:22:23] for example, [00:22:24] doing DNA [00:22:25] testing that would show [00:22:26] proof positive if [00:22:27] someone is innocent or [00:22:28] guilty. I also [00:22:29] think one thing I talk [00:22:30] about in my [00:22:31] book, "Pink Crime," [00:22:32] is, [00:22:33] [00:22:34] is tunnel vision. [00:22:35] That [00:22:36] and I saw [00:22:37] this with police too, [00:22:38] that police and [00:22:39] prosecutors, you know, they'd [00:22:40] focus just in [00:22:41] on one [00:22:42] theory of the case and [00:22:43] one suspect.[00:22:44]

And so then if [00:22:45] they're like, "Okay, you know [00:22:46] what? It's a [00:22:47] murder and Valena [00:22:48] Beatty committed it," [00:22:49] then [00:22:50] any evidence that [00:22:51] supported that, [00:22:52] they, they'd [00:22:53] bring in, they'd [00:22:54] highlight. But any [00:22:55] evidence that would [00:22:56] say, "Nah, it [00:22:57] wasn't Valena. [00:22:58] It's not her," [00:22:59] they would [00:23:00] ignore, they would [00:23:01] downplay, they would [00:23:02] exclude. In [00:23:03] worst-case scenarios, they [00:23:04] would hide, [00:23:05] which prosecutors [00:23:06] have done, [00:23:07] hiding that [00:23:08] exculpatory evidence. [00:23:09] [00:23:10] Even though I'll [00:23:11] just-- for folks to [00:23:12] know, prosecutors do [00:23:13] have an obligation [00:23:14] called Brady, [00:23:15] which means they have [00:23:16] to turn over [00:23:17] exculpatory evidence to the [00:23:18] defense. [00:23:19] Do they do that all [00:23:20] the time? No. [00:23:21] [00:23:22] So I think it's [00:23:23] that tunnel vision, [00:23:24] right? And also, if you [00:23:25] have an office that's [00:23:26] saying, "Hey, it's more [00:23:27] important [00:23:28] to convict [00:23:29] someone who's a [00:23:30] bad person [00:23:31] than if [00:23:32] they committed the [00:23:33] crime," right?

[00:23:34] "I don't know if this [00:23:35] person did this or not, [00:23:36] but I know they're [00:23:37] gonna do something else. [00:23:38] I know they're a bad [00:23:39] person, so we're gonna [00:23:40] do what we can." [00:23:41] If that's the [00:23:42] mentality of the [00:23:43] office, [00:23:44] that's [00:23:45] really harmful. [00:23:46] Uh, and that [00:23:47] means whatever [00:23:48] evidence someone else can [00:23:49] bring in, it's not gonna be [00:23:50] listened to

Bruce Anthony: [00:23:51] I, I, I [00:23:52] don't think this is hard to [00:23:53] believe. I think, [00:23:54] uh, a lot of [00:23:55] people out there that are [00:23:56] listening and watching [00:23:57] this know [00:23:58] either personally [00:23:59] or know when they [00:24:00] get into debates with [00:24:01] other people, [00:24:02] arguments, whatever [00:24:03] you decide to call them, [00:24:04] uh, what you're [00:24:05] describing as [00:24:06] confirmation bias, is

[00:24:07] that they, that they [00:24:08] are just [00:24:09] absolutely, "This [00:24:10] is what I believe, and I'm [00:24:11] gonna find all [00:24:12] the evidence to [00:24:13] back up what I [00:24:14] believe."

 

[00:24:15] [00:24:16] [00:24:17] [00:24:18] [00:24:19] [00:24:20] [00:24:21] [00:24:22]

Bruce Anthony: [00:24:23] We are gonna get to your [00:24:24] book. [00:24:25] Uh, I- don't worry, [00:24:26] we are going to get to [00:24:27] your book, but I wanna [00:24:28] actually get to some [00:24:29] stuff [00:24:30] before your book, uh, [00:24:31] before your book. I, I [00:24:32] wanna talk [00:24:33] about one of your cases [00:24:34] because it shows [00:24:35] everything that we've been [00:24:36] talking about [00:24:37] so far in this [00:24:38] conversation. [00:24:39] Lee Stubbs [00:24:40] or Leah [00:24:41] Stubbs [00:24:42] called an ambulance for [00:24:43] a friend who was [00:24:44] overdosing and ended [00:24:45] up in prison.

How does [00:24:46] a call [00:24:47] for help [00:24:48] become a violent [00:24:49] crime?

Valena Beety: [00:24:50] Yeah. It's because [00:24:51] of who makes the [00:24:52] call.

Bruce Anthony: [00:24:53] Hmm. [00:24:54]

Valena Beety: uh, [00:24:55] I, I just [00:24:56] had someone share [00:24:57] with me a story, [00:24:58] and [00:24:59] she's a [00:25:00] Black woman [00:25:01] married [00:25:02] her husband, [00:25:03] Black man, they have a [00:25:04] daughter. And her [00:25:05] daughter, when she was [00:25:06] young, uh, [00:25:07] slipped in the [00:25:08] bathtub and [00:25:09] injured herself [00:25:10] and was [00:25:11] bleeding, and was [00:25:12] bleeding [00:25:13] from her [00:25:14] vagina.

And [00:25:15] so husband calls [00:25:16] the wife and says, [00:25:17] "Hey, she needs to [00:25:18] go to the hospital. [00:25:19] You need to come [00:25:20] home to take her." [00:25:21] [00:25:22] And the wife is like, " [00:25:23]

Why A Black Dad Was Scared To Take His Hurt Daughter To The ER 🏥😟🚑

Valena Beety: I'm at work. [00:25:24] Like, you need to just take [00:25:25] her to the hospital." [00:25:26] And husband is like, [00:25:27] "No [00:25:28] way am I [00:25:29] taking her to the [00:25:30] hospital, [00:25:31] because if I take her to the [00:25:32] hospital, [00:25:33] they're immediately [00:25:34] going to think [00:25:35] that I [00:25:36] assaulted my [00:25:37] daughter, right?

They're going [00:25:38] to call CPS on [00:25:39] me. You have [00:25:40] to be the one who comes [00:25:41] home and takes her to the [00:25:42] hospital." [00:25:43] Uh, and the wife [00:25:44] did, right? The wife got it, [00:25:45] and she came home [00:25:46] and was [00:25:47] able to take the daughter to the [00:25:48] hospital and get [00:25:49] treatment, and the daughter was [00:25:50] fine. But that's [00:25:51] a prime [00:25:52] example. [00:25:53] And [00:25:54] he was on top of it.

[00:25:55] He knew [00:25:56] what, what could [00:25:57] happen. [00:25:58] And that's [00:25:59] what happened with [00:26:00] Lee Stubbs. Lee [00:26:01] Stubbs is [00:26:02] there with her [00:26:03] [00:26:04] friend. Lee [00:26:05] Stubbs and Tammy Vance, they're [00:26:06] there with their friend, [00:26:07] and their friend [00:26:08] overdoses. [00:26:09] So they call an [00:26:10] ambulance, and the [00:26:11] ambulance comes, [00:26:12] takes this [00:26:13] woman to the [00:26:14] hospital. She's in a [00:26:15] coma. [00:26:16] But they're in [00:26:17] rural [00:26:18] Mississippi.

It's the [00:26:19] country doctor, [00:26:20] and the country [00:26:21] doctor [00:26:22] says that, [00:26:23] you know, he thinks [00:26:24] maybe she was sexually [00:26:25] assaulted.[00:26:26]

Bruce Anthony: [00:26:27] Hmm.

Valena Beety: [00:26:28] uh, the country [00:26:29] doctor, [00:26:30] this [00:26:31] should be surprising, [00:26:32] uh, [00:26:33]

An Overdose Call, A Dentist And Bite Marks That Weren't Real 🦷🚑❌

Valena Beety: decides to [00:26:34] call a [00:26:35] local dentist [00:26:36] who's a [00:26:37] forensic [00:26:38] odontologist, which means he [00:26:39] studies bite [00:26:40] marks. [00:26:41] Decides to call the local [00:26:42] dentist to come in [00:26:43] and examine this [00:26:44] woman, Kim, her [00:26:45] body.[00:26:46]

So the [00:26:47] dentist, Dr. [00:26:48] West... I know. I [00:26:49] know

Bruce Anthony: It's a [00:26:50] dentist [00:26:51] [00:26:52] examining the body. [00:26:53] Does the body have [00:26:54] bark- bite [00:26:55] marks on it?[00:26:56]

Valena Beety: Well, [00:26:57] if Dr. West is [00:26:58] there, yes, of [00:26:59] course it does, 'cause he's [00:27:00] gonna find bite marks, [00:27:01] right? Whatever [00:27:02] it is, he's gonna find [00:27:03] bite marks. I [00:27:04] mean, he would find [00:27:05] bite marks that he would [00:27:06] say, "Oh, this [00:27:07] is just the top [00:27:08] teeth." I mean, [00:27:09] who's gonna bite into [00:27:10] something with just their [00:27:11] top teeth? [00:27:12] But I mean, he, [00:27:13] he would find things, and they [00:27:14] were bug [00:27:15] bites.

They, they were [00:27:16] all sorts of other things, [00:27:17] but he would say they were bite [00:27:18] marks. [00:27:19] So of course, [00:27:20] it's like kind of a [00:27:21] [00:27:22] foregone [00:27:23] conclusion that if he's called [00:27:24] in, there's [00:27:25] gonna be bite marks. [00:27:26] So he comes in, [00:27:27] he-- all-- [00:27:28] it, it's all bad. [00:27:29] He comes in, he [00:27:30] examines this [00:27:31] woman while [00:27:32] she's in a [00:27:33] coma. He examines her [00:27:34] when she's [00:27:35] naked. [00:27:36] [00:27:37] So she can't [00:27:38] consent, right? [00:27:39] He [00:27:40] records the [00:27:41] examination, [00:27:42] and he [00:27:43] says that, yes, there [00:27:44] are bite marks. [00:27:45] So who [00:27:46] could cause [00:27:47] these bite marks [00:27:48] except for, [00:27:49] uh, the [00:27:50] key factor I forgot to [00:27:51] say, Lee and [00:27:52] Tammy were both [00:27:53] lesbians. [00:27:54] So it had to have [00:27:55] been these lesbians [00:27:56] who bit [00:27:57] this [00:27:58] woman and injured this [00:27:59] woman. [00:28:00] Yeah

Bruce Anthony: So [00:28:01] that brings me to my [00:28:02] next [00:28:03] question. [00:28:04] Junk [00:28:05] science.

Junk Science Explained: Cop Built Forensics That Nobody Tested 🧪🚓📉

Valena Beety: [00:28:06] Yeah[00:28:07]

Bruce Anthony: So how [00:28:08] does junk science [00:28:09] get treated as [00:28:10] fact in a [00:28:11] courtroom? Can you [00:28:12] explain, one, what [00:28:13] junk science is [00:28:14] and how that [00:28:15] junk science is [00:28:16] like, "Oh yeah, this is [00:28:17] absolute fact"?[00:28:18]

Valena Beety: Yeah. So [00:28:19] junk science, [00:28:20] you know, we, [00:28:21] we generally [00:28:22] understand science as [00:28:23] it's [00:28:24] tested in a lab, [00:28:25] and it's not [00:28:26] about whether [00:28:27] the science and [00:28:28] the [00:28:29] hypothesis is [00:28:30] proven right or wrong. [00:28:31] Like either way, [00:28:32] that's gonna be a valuable [00:28:33] result. You know, [00:28:34] if I think, [00:28:35] [00:28:36] [00:28:37] I'm gonna be able to [00:28:38] change the [00:28:39] color of, [00:28:40] uh, my [00:28:41] book from pink to [00:28:42] green if I put [00:28:43] something on it and [00:28:44] it doesn't change, [00:28:45] that's valuable [00:28:46] information.

[00:28:47] But forensic [00:28:48] science is science [00:28:49] that was developed [00:28:50] by the [00:28:51] police specifically [00:28:52] for [00:28:53] policing and [00:28:54] for [00:28:55] obtaining convictions. [00:28:56] So [00:28:57] we've got shoe [00:28:58] prints, we've [00:28:59] got bite [00:29:00] marks, we've got, [00:29:01] uh, fire [00:29:02] science, uh, we got [00:29:03] [00:29:04] handwriting. [00:29:05] Uh, so [00:29:06] these are all [00:29:07] things that [00:29:08] police [00:29:09] developed. So they're not [00:29:10] testing it in a [00:29:11] lab.

They're not [00:29:12] seeing like, "Oh, [00:29:13] is this actually [00:29:14] accurate? [00:29:15] Is it [00:29:16] reliable?" [00:29:17] [00:29:18] no. They're just [00:29:19] saying, "Okay, does [00:29:20] this [00:29:21] create evidence [00:29:22] that convicts our [00:29:23] defendant?" So [00:29:24] this is what we're [00:29:25] talking about when we're talking about junk [00:29:26] science and faulty [00:29:27] forensic evidence. [00:29:28] How [00:29:29] does it come in? [00:29:30] [00:29:31] Uh, [00:29:32] because it [00:29:33] had been kinda [00:29:34] grandfathered [00:29:35] in for [00:29:36] many years, [00:29:37] uh, [00:29:38] that courts just [00:29:39] said, "Hey, we've [00:29:40] always accepted bite marks."

[00:29:41] In fact, every [00:29:42] state except for [00:29:43] one, courts [00:29:44] continue to accept [00:29:45] bite mark evidence. [00:29:46] And bite marks are the [00:29:47] worst [00:29:48] because [00:29:49] bite mark [00:29:50] experts have [00:29:51] [00:29:52] themselves tried to [00:29:53] do studies, have [00:29:54] tested themselves to say, [00:29:55] "Okay, okay, so [00:29:56] we're the professionals. [00:29:57] Can [00:29:58] we, uh, [00:29:59] determine whether [00:30:00] something is a bite mark or [00:30:01] not?

And if it [00:30:02] is a bite mark, [00:30:03] can we [00:30:04] determine if [00:30:05] it's a animal [00:30:06] bite mark or a human [00:30:07] bite mark?" And guess [00:30:08] what? They [00:30:09] can't. They [00:30:10] can't, even when they test [00:30:11] themselves. [00:30:12] So if they can't do [00:30:13] that, they [00:30:14] definitely can't say a [00:30:15] bite mark matches [00:30:16] Valena Beety. [00:30:17] And [00:30:18] yet, in [00:30:19] every state [00:30:20] except for Texas, [00:30:21] this evidence can [00:30:22] still come in, [00:30:23] that the court's like, [00:30:24] "Uh, if the prosecutor [00:30:25] wants to, to [00:30:26] propose it and admit [00:30:27] it," it'll [00:30:28] generally come in.[00:30:29]

So, so [00:30:30] that's what we're talking about [00:30:31] with, with junk [00:30:32] science. [00:30:33] [00:30:34] And, [00:30:35] and I'll just [00:30:36] circle back [00:30:37] to, uh, [00:30:38] it's [00:30:39] harder to reverse a [00:30:40] conviction because [00:30:41] at [00:30:42] trial, [00:30:43] you know, you've, you've [00:30:44] got your [00:30:45] evidence and [00:30:46] both [00:30:47] sides are [00:30:48] arguing and, [00:30:49] [00:30:50] it, you [00:30:51] [00:30:52] [00:30:53] know- are often [00:30:54] successful, [00:30:55] but in [00:30:56] post-conviction, the [00:30:57] story's [00:30:58] done, [00:30:59] right? I mean, the-- you've [00:31:00] had an appeal. [00:31:01] The courts don't wanna go [00:31:02] back and look at it. [00:31:03] [00:31:04] As I said, prosecutors [00:31:05] don't wanna go back and look at it, [00:31:06] and there's [00:31:07] already a story. In [00:31:08] fact, there's a [00:31:09] written criminal [00:31:10] appeal that says, [00:31:11] "Here's what happened.

[00:31:12] Bellina Beatty did [00:31:13] XYZ." [00:31:14] And so I'm [00:31:15] trying to then come [00:31:16] in and say, "No, I [00:31:17] didn't, and here's the [00:31:18] evidence. Guess what? [00:31:19] Here's my [00:31:20] alibi, Bruce. I was [00:31:21] with him at that time. [00:31:22] I was on his [00:31:23] podcast." You know, I'm [00:31:24] trying to show all this [00:31:25] evidence, but the [00:31:26] standard is so [00:31:27] hard and [00:31:28] so high to [00:31:29] reverse a conviction [00:31:30] that the court can just [00:31:31] say, [00:31:32] "Eh, they probably should [00:31:33] have considered that.[00:31:34]

They didn't. [00:31:35] Harmless error. [00:31:36] It's fine." [00:31:37]

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Valena Beety: [00:31:38] very, very hard to reverse [00:31:39] a conviction[00:31:40]

Bruce Anthony: You know,

Forensic Files Was Built On Junk Science? Bruce Is Heartbroken 📺💔😩

Bruce Anthony: you [00:31:41] broke my heart just [00:31:42] now because [00:31:43] when, when [00:31:44] I was thinking [00:31:45] about junk [00:31:46] science, I'm [00:31:47] thinking of, [00:31:48] I don't know, [00:31:49] like, an [00:31:50] astro- uh, you know, an [00:31:51] [00:31:52] astrologist coming [00:31:53] in or [00:31:54] somebody that- [00:31:55] that's, that's [00:31:56] saying I, I'm a [00:31:57] medium or something like [00:31:58] that. [00:31:59] What you are literally [00:32:00] saying is one of [00:32:01] my favorite [00:32:02] shows, Forensic [00:32:03] Files, [00:32:04] is [00:32:05] full of [00:32:06] junk science, [00:32:07] and the [00:32:08] whole time that I [00:32:09] go on these [00:32:10] [00:32:11] binge-watching episodes of [00:32:12] Forensic [00:32:13] Files and I'm like, "Man, [00:32:14] they really got that, [00:32:15] that...

They really [00:32:16] got that person. That [00:32:17] was a good [00:32:18] case. That was a good [00:32:19] prosecution." No, [00:32:20] what you're telling me [00:32:21] is it's [00:32:22] junk science, that it [00:32:23] was solely [00:32:24] created, solely [00:32:25] created[00:32:26]

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:32:27] Yeah.[00:32:28]

Yeah [00:32:29]

Bruce Anthony: and, uh, to [00:32:30] send, basically send people [00:32:31] to jail.

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:32:32] And when [00:32:33] they do test [00:32:34] it, they're like, "Oh, [00:32:35] this doesn't [00:32:36] stand up." Like you, if you [00:32:37] actually try to [00:32:38] test the evidence, you're like, [00:32:39] "Oh, this doesn't [00:32:40] actually..." I mean, fire [00:32:41] science is a [00:32:42] great example where [00:32:43] there are all these [00:32:44] fire myths that this [00:32:45] proves it was [00:32:46] arson, and they're just [00:32:47] false.[00:32:48] [00:32:49]

So [00:32:50] yeah.

Bruce Anthony: [00:32:51] I wanna go back to something [00:32:52] earlier that you [00:32:53] said, [00:32:54] [00:32:55] when you said, [00:32:56] you know, the, the, the [00:32:57] [00:32:58] prosecutors and [00:32:59] cops kinda just [00:33:00] get that tunnel vision, [00:33:01] they get that [00:33:02] confirmation [00:33:03] vi-bias on [00:33:04] particular [00:33:05] suspects. Uh, [00:33:06] what happens to [00:33:07] that evidence that [00:33:08] doesn't fit? You said [00:33:09] some prosecutors [00:33:10] just kinda [00:33:11] bury it. [00:33:12] Is it, is [00:33:13] it, [00:33:14] is it [00:33:15] solely the people?

Are [00:33:16] they just solely [00:33:17] bad actors, [00:33:18] or is it the [00:33:19] system [00:33:20] built to just [00:33:21] reward [00:33:22] convictions, and that's [00:33:23] the reason why they're doing it? [00:33:24] So in other words, are they just [00:33:25] bad [00:33:26] people, or is [00:33:27] it [00:33:28] a bad system, [00:33:29] or a little of [00:33:30] both?

Valena Beety: Eh, a [00:33:31] little bit of both. I think [00:33:32] there's a lot of [00:33:33] prosecutors who [00:33:34] [00:33:35] [00:33:36] [00:33:37] are, [00:33:38] Believing in what [00:33:39] they do, [00:33:40] uh, [00:33:41] and [00:33:42] [00:33:43] would be [00:33:44] insulted [00:33:45] if [00:33:46] I said, [00:33:47] "Hey, you might have [00:33:48] wrongfully convicted [00:33:49] someone," [00:33:50] or, "Hey, your [00:33:51] office might wrongly convict [00:33:52] people." They'd be [00:33:53] insulted by that. I [00:33:54] think that's kind of a [00:33:55] problem that we build up [00:33:56] prosecutors as, [00:33:57] you know, the, [00:33:58] the white knight [00:33:59] who's [00:34:00] never does [00:34:01] wrong, because [00:34:02] then prosecutors have [00:34:03] to live up to [00:34:04] that, and then they're like, "Nope, [00:34:05] uh, I can't [00:34:06] make any errors.

I [00:34:07] can't make any mistakes." [00:34:08] I mean, I know [00:34:09] I, you know, [00:34:10] ragged out [00:34:11] some police earlier, [00:34:12] but [00:34:13] [00:34:14] actually, if you look at [00:34:15] wrongful convictions, [00:34:16] police are [00:34:17] more likely [00:34:18] to admit like, [00:34:19] "Oh yeah, we [00:34:20] messed that up. [00:34:21] We shouldn't have done [00:34:22] that." They're more [00:34:23] likely to say that [00:34:24] and concede that and be [00:34:25] like, "Yeah, [00:34:26] you know what?

That person shouldn't [00:34:27] be in there," [00:34:28] than [00:34:29] prosecutors. Because again, [00:34:30] prosecutors, it's like you're [00:34:31] not allowed to be [00:34:32] wrong. [00:34:33] [00:34:34] So, [00:34:35] uh, yeah, [00:34:36] I, I [00:34:37] think it's, it's [00:34:38] both. It's the tunnel [00:34:39] vision, it's [00:34:40] the [00:34:41] [00:34:42] that even though you're [00:34:43] human, you [00:34:44] can't make any [00:34:45] mistakes. [00:34:46] Uh, [00:34:47] [00:34:48] yeah, and the [00:34:49] fear [00:34:50] of admitting any [00:34:51] of that.

Bruce Anthony: [00:34:52] Yeah, it's [00:34:53] tough for people to [00:34:54] admit when they're wrong.

Valena Beety: [00:34:55] Nia had it all.[00:34:56]

Bruce Anthony: your new [00:34:57] book, "Pink [00:34:58] Crime," it's [00:34:59] about convictions [00:35:00] even [00:35:01] when there's no [00:35:02] crime that occurred. We [00:35:03] talked about it [00:35:04] earlier [00:35:05] about, uh, a [00:35:06] case that you did [00:35:07] before writing this [00:35:08] book, and the [00:35:09] dentist and the [00:35:10] bite marks and all this [00:35:11] other stuff. How does [00:35:12] an ordinary [00:35:13] tragedy [00:35:14] become a criminal [00:35:15] case?

I- i- in [00:35:16] other words, how [00:35:17] does a, [00:35:18] a [00:35:19] situation, uh, like [00:35:20] the, the, [00:35:21] the, the Black [00:35:22] man, uh, [00:35:23] not wanting his

[00:35:24] to- to take his [00:35:25] daughter... [00:35:26] yeah. I, I,

Bruce's Bruise Rule: What The Neighbors Would Assume About Him 🏠👀🚫

Bruce Anthony: I, [00:35:27] I, I was [00:35:28] once married and my [00:35:29] ex-wife worked... It was [00:35:30] a little teeny-tiny [00:35:31] woman, and she [00:35:32] worked with, [00:35:33] uh, [00:35:34] children with autism. [00:35:35] She worked with [00:35:36] high [00:35:37] school-aged children with [00:35:38] autism and [00:35:39] very [00:35:40] severely on the [00:35:41] spectrum, and she [00:35:42] had, she would have to [00:35:43] physically restrain them.[00:35:44]

Now, [00:35:45] she would come home with [00:35:46] bruises. [00:35:47] I'm six [00:35:48] foot four, [00:35:49] 250 pound [00:35:50] Black man, right? [00:35:51] Bald head, [00:35:52] [00:35:53] tattoos, the whole nine. [00:35:54] And we lived [00:35:55] in an area that's [00:35:56] right outside the [00:35:57] Pentagon, right outside of [00:35:58] Washington, DC, kind [00:35:59] of an affluent [00:36:00] area. [00:36:01] And I told her, [00:36:02] I said, "You have to [00:36:03] make sure that you [00:36:04] document every time [00:36:05] that you have a [00:36:06] bruise or an [00:36:07] altercation at your [00:36:08] job."

She's like, [00:36:09] "Why?" It's like, "You [00:36:10] can't be in a [00:36:11] relationship with me, [00:36:12] living [00:36:13] with me, [00:36:14] coming home with [00:36:15] bruises." She's [00:36:16] like, "But, [00:36:17] like, I would, of course, [00:36:18] never report or [00:36:19] anything." She's like... [00:36:20] And I said, "No, [00:36:21] our neighbors, [00:36:22] if you come home [00:36:23] with a black [00:36:24] eye or a bruise [00:36:25] on your head, [00:36:26] [00:36:27] they're gonna think me." [00:36:28] So how does [00:36:29] something that's just a [00:36:30] normal occurrence, [00:36:31] that's not a [00:36:32] crime, end [00:36:33] up in a [00:36:34] criminal case?[00:36:35]

Valena Beety: Yeah. And [00:36:36] thank you, Bruce, for sharing that [00:36:37] because you're right on [00:36:38] point. That's [00:36:39] exactly, you know, [00:36:40] one example of what [00:36:41] happens when, again, [00:36:42] there's, there's no [00:36:43] criminal act [00:36:44] and yet [00:36:45] police [00:36:46] investigate, [00:36:47] child protective [00:36:48] services get [00:36:49] involved, and then [00:36:50] prosecutors bring [00:36:51] charges. Uh,

Kristine Bunch: A Mother Fought A Fire And Got Convicted Anyway 🔥🚲😢

Valena Beety: [00:36:52] so [00:36:53] an example [00:36:54] I have in my book [00:36:55] is this woman I work [00:36:56] with in Indiana [00:36:57] who's the [00:36:58] director of our Indiana [00:36:59] Innocence Project, [00:37:00] Kristine [00:37:01] Bunch, [00:37:02] and [00:37:03] fellow [00:37:04] Hoosier, and she [00:37:05] was a young [00:37:06] mom, a single [00:37:07] mom, [00:37:08] [00:37:09] you know, had her high school [00:37:10] diploma and [00:37:11] was working to [00:37:12] get, [00:37:13] uh, you know, [00:37:14] welding [00:37:15] uh, [00:37:16] diploma to be able [00:37:17] to, to do more [00:37:18] work and provide for her [00:37:19] son.[00:37:20]

And [00:37:21] in the middle of the [00:37:22] night, uh, [00:37:23] there's an electrical [00:37:24] fire in her [00:37:25] home. And I [00:37:26] think we can all imagine [00:37:27] this, you know. We've [00:37:28] got space heaters, [00:37:29] you leave the space heater [00:37:30] on at night, [00:37:31] and then it catches on [00:37:32] fire. [00:37:33] So there's a [00:37:34] fire in her home [00:37:35] and, [00:37:36] uh, she can't [00:37:37] get to her son. [00:37:38] And she [00:37:39] tries to [00:37:40] get through this wall of [00:37:41] flames to get to her [00:37:42] son, uh, [00:37:43] and she can't.

[00:37:44] And she's [00:37:45] got burns on her, [00:37:46] so she goes [00:37:47] outside and she [00:37:48] takes a, a [00:37:49] tricycle and she [00:37:50] busts it through [00:37:51] the window of [00:37:52] her young son [00:37:53] and tries to get in [00:37:54] that way. [00:37:55] And her neighbors [00:37:56] are holding her [00:37:57] back. And at that [00:37:58] point, [00:37:59] the, uh, [00:38:00] fire [00:38:01] station, the [00:38:02] firefighters come. [00:38:03] Uh, and so [00:38:04] they rush into the home [00:38:05] and [00:38:06] an ambulance is [00:38:07] there and it takes [00:38:08] Kristine to the [00:38:09] hospital for her own [00:38:10] injuries.[00:38:11]

So Kristine [00:38:12] goes to the [00:38:13] hospital [00:38:14] believing that [00:38:15] the [00:38:16] firefighters have saved her [00:38:17] s- her son, [00:38:18] that she's gonna [00:38:19] be treated and he's [00:38:20] gonna be there soon. [00:38:21] [00:38:22] And instead, [00:38:23] police [00:38:24] arrive to [00:38:25] interrogate [00:38:26] her at [00:38:27] the hospital, [00:38:28] at her bedside. [00:38:29] [00:38:30] Uh, and that's [00:38:31] when she finds [00:38:32] out that her son has [00:38:33] died [00:38:34] and that [00:38:35] police think [00:38:36] she set the [00:38:37] fire to murder [00:38:38] her son.[00:38:39] [00:38:40]

So and, [00:38:41] so that's a prime [00:38:42] example of a, of a [00:38:43] no crime [00:38:44] [00:38:45] Charge. [00:38:46] Uh, and then [00:38:47] she goes to trial, [00:38:48] and she's wrongly [00:38:49] convicted based [00:38:50] on this [00:38:51] bogus junk [00:38:52] science of fire [00:38:53] science evidence. [00:38:54] Also, [00:38:55] police lying. [00:38:56] So [00:38:57] m- [00:38:58] they straight [00:38:59] out lied [00:39:00] about, "Oh, we found [00:39:01] accelerant [00:39:02] in, uh, the [00:39:03] little boy's room," [00:39:04] fire accelerant, [00:39:05] which was not [00:39:06] there.

And [00:39:07] then gender bias. [00:39:08] She didn't wanna be a [00:39:09] mom. And, you know, [00:39:10] they couldn't even come up with [00:39:11] a motive, [00:39:12] uh, but they [00:39:13] just kept saying she didn't [00:39:14] wanna be a mom. She [00:39:15] didn't wanna do this. [00:39:16] [00:39:17] She, [00:39:18] she [00:39:19] actually-- she did not [00:39:20] ever... [00:39:21] [00:39:22] There's a [00:39:23] lot of moms in these [00:39:24] situations who will [00:39:25] say, [00:39:26] "Oh my gosh, [00:39:27] I, I should have been [00:39:28] able to save my [00:39:29] son.

[00:39:30] I'm such a bad mom. [00:39:31] I'm such a bad [00:39:32] person." [00:39:33] And that's used as a [00:39:34] confession. [00:39:35] Uh, but [00:39:36] Kristine never did that. [00:39:37] Uh, and so then [00:39:38] the prosecution [00:39:39] instead said, "You know [00:39:40] what? We don't hear a [00:39:41] word of [00:39:42] regret from her. [00:39:43] She doesn't say, [00:39:44] 'I wish it had been [00:39:45] me.' She doesn't [00:39:46] say she regrets [00:39:47] anything from that [00:39:48] night.

[00:39:49] That's all you need to know. [00:39:50] This was an intentionally [00:39:51] set fire, and she [00:39:52] killed her son." [00:39:53] And she was [00:39:54] wrongly convicted[00:39:55]

Bruce Anthony: So damn if you [00:39:56] do, damn if you don't,[00:39:57]

right?

Valena Beety: [00:39:58] exactly[00:39:59]

Bruce Anthony: You [00:40:00] have another [00:40:01] [00:40:02] situation in your [00:40:03] book. Can you walk us [00:40:04] through one of the [00:40:05] pregnancy [00:40:06] loss [00:40:07] and how does a [00:40:08] miscarriage become a

Valena Beety: [00:40:09] Wow. Yeah, [00:40:10] so my book, "Pink [00:40:11] Crime," really talks about, [00:40:12] so all these [00:40:13] no crime wrongful [00:40:14] convictions you and I have been [00:40:15] talking about, [00:40:16] today, uh, [00:40:17] now that [00:40:18] abortion can [00:40:19] be illegal in a lot of [00:40:20] states, it's [00:40:21] just really [00:40:22] ramped up. So we're [00:40:23] seeing a lot [00:40:24] of these [00:40:25] no [00:40:26] crime [00:40:27] charges, no crime [00:40:28] wrongful convictions [00:40:29] related to [00:40:30] pregnancy, [00:40:31] related to, you know, [00:40:32] a [00:40:33] miscarriage that [00:40:34] becomes [00:40:35] murder or becomes [00:40:36] [00:40:37] abuse of fetal [00:40:38] remains or [00:40:39] fetal harm, [00:40:40] or [00:40:41] stillbirths that are [00:40:42] then charged as [00:40:43] homicide.[00:40:44]

And these, [00:40:45] again, are based on junk [00:40:46] science. [00:40:47]

Bruce Anthony: H- how [00:40:48] can this still, [00:40:49] how c- [00:40:50] how? H- [00:40:51] how is junk [00:40:52] science [00:40:53] saying that [00:40:54] these are [00:40:55] murders[00:40:56]

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:40:57] Which one do you wanna hear [00:40:58] about first? Do you wanna hear [00:40:59] about miscarriage or [00:41:00] stillbirth?[00:41:01]

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:02] Both.

Valena Beety: I know.

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:03] go f- let's start with [00:41:04] the miscarriage[00:41:05]

Valena Beety: I know. I, [00:41:06] it's-- these are, these are [00:41:07] heavy topics. But [00:41:08] [00:41:09] so [00:41:10] miscarriage. Let's

A Miscarriage, A SWAT Team And A False Confession About Cinnamon 🤰🚔🫙

Valena Beety: talk [00:41:11] about Patience [00:41:12] Frazier, who's a [00:41:13] woman in rural [00:41:14] Nevada. [00:41:15] She already has two [00:41:16] kids. Uh, she's [00:41:17] got a broken down [00:41:18] car. She gets [00:41:19] pregnant.[00:41:20]

She's living with [00:41:21] someone. She can't even [00:41:22] make it to get [00:41:23] prenatal care. She's not [00:41:24] sure she wants to have this [00:41:25] third kid. [00:41:26] Uh, [00:41:27] and in the midst of [00:41:28] that, she [00:41:29] has a miscarriage,[00:41:30]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah.[00:41:31]

Valena Beety: and she [00:41:32] names, [00:41:33] [00:41:34] she names [00:41:35] the fetus, [00:41:36] names him Abel, [00:41:37] and then she buries him in her [00:41:38] backyard, [00:41:39] and she [00:41:40] posts on social [00:41:41] media [00:41:42] her burial.[00:41:43]

And she [00:41:44] says, [00:41:45] "I'm so sorry, [00:41:46] Abel. I'm such a [00:41:47] bad mom." [00:41:48] [00:41:49] Exactly what we were just talking about. [00:41:50] So she says [00:41:51] this, [00:41:52] and [00:41:53] then a SWAT [00:41:54] team of [00:41:55] police come into [00:41:56] her home [00:41:57] to [00:41:58] investigate. They [00:41:59] dig up [00:42:00] the [00:42:01] remains, [00:42:02] and they start [00:42:03] interrogating her. [00:42:04] And initially, [00:42:05] Patience is like, [00:42:06] "What are you [00:42:07] doing here? [00:42:08] This is [00:42:09] intensely [00:42:10] private.

Like, why [00:42:11] are you involved in this at [00:42:12] all?" [00:42:13] But through the [00:42:14] interrogation, [00:42:15] she [00:42:16] starts to [00:42:17] believe [00:42:18] that she caused the [00:42:19] miscarriage. [00:42:20] Now, [00:42:21] w- almost [00:42:22] one in four [00:42:23] pregnancies end in a [00:42:24] miscarriage, and they're [00:42:25] spontaneous, and [00:42:26] there's nothing... It [00:42:27] doesn't matter how much you [00:42:28] want to [00:42:29] have the baby or [00:42:30] don't want to, there's [00:42:31] nothing you can do [00:42:32] to, to cause [00:42:33] or prevent that [00:42:34] miscarriage, [00:42:35] in [00:42:36] terms of spontaneous [00:42:37] miscarriages.

[00:42:38] Uh, but [00:42:39] these [00:42:40] police kept telling her, [00:42:41] "You caused it. You [00:42:42] caused it." This is also a [00:42:43] narrative we hear in society. [00:42:44] "You must have caused [00:42:45] it. You-- There must have [00:42:46] been something you did. [00:42:47] Did you eat [00:42:48] fish? Did [00:42:49] you walk too [00:42:50] much? You were supposed to [00:42:51] be on bed rest," [00:42:52] whatever. [00:42:53] So [00:42:54] Patience [00:42:55] [00:42:56] confesses, I kid you [00:42:57] not, [00:42:58] confesses [00:42:59] to [00:43:00] lifting heavy [00:43:01] weights [00:43:02] and [00:43:03] to eating too [00:43:04] much cinnamon,[00:43:05] [00:43:06]

and [00:43:07] that those [00:43:08] must have, right, [00:43:09] and that those must [00:43:10] have caused [00:43:11] the miscarriage.[00:43:12]

And so she now [00:43:13] believes she [00:43:14] caused this. She [00:43:15] pleads guilty. [00:43:16] [00:43:17] She goes to [00:43:18] prison, and [00:43:19] it's not [00:43:20] until [00:43:21] post-conviction, there's an attorney [00:43:22] representing her, [00:43:23] that she [00:43:24] finally hears from some [00:43:25] experts that she didn't [00:43:26] cause the miscarriage. [00:43:27] It wasn't her. [00:43:28] They were just [00:43:29] lying to her. 'Cause [00:43:30] police can lie to you. [00:43:31] I think folks [00:43:32] hopefully know that [00:43:33] police can [00:43:34] legally lie to [00:43:35] everyone.[00:43:36]

In some states, they can't [00:43:37] lie to juveniles, [00:43:38] but otherwise, [00:43:39] they can lie to you. [00:43:40] [00:43:41] So that's, that's [00:43:42] just one example

Bruce Anthony: [00:43:43] [00:43:44] [00:43:45] It, it [00:43:46] seems like, and, [00:43:47] and I'm not a [00:43:48] lawyer, but it [00:43:49] seems like that's also [00:43:50] a failure of her [00:43:51] defense attorney[00:43:52]

Valena Beety: Oh, [00:43:53] yes. For [00:43:54] sure. I [00:43:55] agree. Yes.[00:43:56]

Bruce Anthony: often are [00:43:57] these [00:43:58] cases, you know, we talked [00:43:59] about the prosecutors, we've [00:44:00] been burying the [00:44:01] prosecutors, but how [00:44:02] often are these [00:44:03] cases just [00:44:04] poor [00:44:05] representation from the [00:44:06] defense attorney as [00:44:07] well?

Valena Beety: Yeah, a [00:44:08] lot of times. [00:44:09] They, you [00:44:10] know, defense attorneys, they've [00:44:11] got too many [00:44:12] cases. [00:44:13] [00:44:14] About 95% of [00:44:15] cases end in guilty [00:44:16] pleas. So if [00:44:17] you're just part of that [00:44:18] system, you're like, [00:44:19] "Okay, this case is gonna [00:44:20] plead out." [00:44:21] yeah, I [00:44:22] mean, it was [00:44:23] [00:44:24] definitely, [00:44:25] [00:44:26] [00:44:27] [00:44:28] [00:44:29] I would say horrible [00:44:30] representation [00:44:31] of Patience [00:44:32] and of [00:44:33] other individuals too. [00:44:34] So it's on, [00:44:35] it's on defense [00:44:36] counci- counsel as well, [00:44:37] provided the [00:44:38] information is [00:44:39] disclosed to them [00:44:40] from the prosecution. [00:44:41] Yeah.[00:44:42]

But also [00:44:43] prosecutors don't have to [00:44:44] disclose evidence [00:44:45] that's exculpatory [00:44:46] until [00:44:47] trial.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm[00:44:48]

Valena Beety: So if [00:44:49] someone takes a plea, like [00:44:50] Patience, [00:44:51] they [00:44:52] didn't have to turn [00:44:53] over [00:44:54] information [00:44:55] that [00:44:56] showed, you [00:44:57] know, [00:44:58] no, the [00:44:59] child didn't die [00:45:00] or the fetus didn't, [00:45:01] [00:45:02] uh, [00:45:03] of the [00:45:04] fetus [00:45:05] didn't end.

The [00:45:06] miscarriage didn't happen because of [00:45:07] cinnamon or, [00:45:08] [00:45:09] uh,

Bruce Anthony: And [00:45:10] lifting heavy weights. [00:45:11] Yeah. [00:45:12] Okay.

The Floating Lung Test That Turns Stillbirth Into A Murder Case 🫁🧪🚨

Bruce Anthony: Uh, [00:45:13] ladies and gentlemen, I'm [00:45:14] sorry, but I [00:45:15] gotta hear the second [00:45:16] story.

Valena Beety: [00:45:17] Ugh!

Bruce Anthony: the [00:45:18] stillbirth as [00:45:19] well, how does that turn [00:45:20] into a

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:45:21] Yeah. So [00:45:22] stillbirths are [00:45:23] also faulty [00:45:24] forensic evidence, [00:45:25] junk science, [00:45:26] [00:45:27] uh, [00:45:28] gender bias. [00:45:29] [00:45:30] So [00:45:31] you [00:45:32] have a woman, we [00:45:33] have a lot of these [00:45:34] cases, [00:45:35] who has a [00:45:36] stillbirth [00:45:37] and [00:45:38] either has a [00:45:39] stillbirth at the [00:45:40] hospital [00:45:41] alone, like we [00:45:42] have a [00:45:43] teenager who went into a [00:45:44] bathroom in a hospital [00:45:45] and had a [00:45:46] stillbirth [00:45:47] or these [00:45:48] women have stillbirths at [00:45:49] home, and then they go to the [00:45:50] hospital 'cause they're [00:45:51] hemorrhaging.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:45:52]

Valena Beety: [00:45:53] Uh, and [00:45:54] at the [00:45:55] hospital, [00:45:56] the doctors, [00:45:57] uh, call [00:45:58] [00:45:59] CPS, and they [00:46:00] call the [00:46:01] police, and there starts to [00:46:02] be an [00:46:03] investigation. [00:46:04] Uh, so [00:46:05] perhaps this [00:46:06] person didn't have [00:46:07] a stillbirth, [00:46:08] but they're a [00:46:09] murderer. [00:46:10] So how do you [00:46:11] prove [00:46:12] that a [00:46:13] mother is a [00:46:14] murderer, that she [00:46:15] affirmatively killed this [00:46:16] baby? How do you prove it? [00:46:17] You rely [00:46:18] on junk [00:46:19] science.

[00:46:20] There's a test [00:46:21] called the floating lung [00:46:22] test, which [00:46:23] I kid you not, goes [00:46:24] back to 1600, [00:46:25] 1700s, [00:46:26] [00:46:27] and [00:46:28] it's been [00:46:29] challenged so [00:46:30] much, and it's still [00:46:31] used. So [00:46:32] the test [00:46:33] is you take a [00:46:34] piece of lung [00:46:35] from the [00:46:36] newborn, [00:46:37] from the neonate, [00:46:38] and you put it in [00:46:39] water, and [00:46:40] if the piece of [00:46:41] lung [00:46:42] floats, then [00:46:43] that means [00:46:44] that the [00:46:45] baby was born, [00:46:46] and the baby took [00:46:47] its first [00:46:48] breath, and it was [00:46:49] [00:46:50] breathing, filling up its lungs [00:46:51] with air, [00:46:52] and [00:46:53] then the mother [00:46:54] murdered the baby.[00:46:55]

[00:46:56] That's your proof, [00:46:57] the [00:46:58] floating piece of lung[00:46:59]

Bruce Anthony: Now I'm [00:47:00] sure that they have [00:47:01] some [00:47:02] [00:47:03] [00:47:04] scientific [00:47:05] reason as to [00:47:06] why that [00:47:07] piece of [00:47:08] lung would float [00:47:09] in the water, [00:47:10] correct? It can't [00:47:11] just... So you're [00:47:12] not telling me [00:47:13] this is [00:47:14] essentially the same test that they [00:47:15] used to determine if a [00:47:16] w- if a woman [00:47:17] was a witch or not by [00:47:18] throwing her in the river. [00:47:19] Like, th- y- [00:47:20] you're, you're telling me [00:47:21] that there [00:47:22] has to, there [00:47:23] has to be, I don't [00:47:24] know, s- they're using [00:47:25] something from the periodic [00:47:26] table, right?

They [00:47:27] have to be.

Valena Beety: [00:47:28] No, [00:47:29] no. I mean, [00:47:30] listen, it's better because I [00:47:31] don't think women are witches, [00:47:32] so, you know, there's not gonna [00:47:33] be any proof there [00:47:34] anyways, right? [00:47:35] But no, this [00:47:36] has false positives [00:47:37] all the time. The piece of [00:47:38] lung might float. [00:47:39] And I, I mean, it's [00:47:40] more likely to float, [00:47:41] so then you're like, "Oh, [00:47:42] okay, that shows [00:47:43] Melina's a murderer."

[00:47:44] Nah, it's-- [00:47:45] There's so many [00:47:46] problems with it that [00:47:47] people from the [00:47:48] National Association of [00:47:49] Medical Examiners, [00:47:50] NAME, [00:47:51] they've come out, written [00:47:52] letters about it. [00:47:53] In states where these [00:47:54] prosecutions are [00:47:55] happening, medical [00:47:56] examiners are [00:47:57] testifying to legislators [00:47:58] about it. [00:47:59] So there's a lot [00:48:00] of pushback. [00:48:01] Uh, and [00:48:02] o-on this point, [00:48:03] I like to think [00:48:04] maybe prosecutors just [00:48:05] aren't educated and [00:48:06] just don't know.[00:48:07] [00:48:08]

But [00:48:09] I-- it's [00:48:10] horrific that they [00:48:11] continue to bring this [00:48:12] in. So they [00:48:13] rely on that, and [00:48:14] then they try to [00:48:15] come [00:48:16] up again with [00:48:17] motive. Like, how do you [00:48:18] prove a motive if [00:48:19] someone didn't commit a [00:48:20] crime? It's [00:48:21] pretty hard. [00:48:22] Uh, so they're [00:48:23] like, "Okay, [00:48:24] well did you get [00:48:25] prenatal care? [00:48:26] If you didn't get prenatal [00:48:27] care, then [00:48:28] that's a sign that [00:48:29] you intended [00:48:30] to murder [00:48:31] this baby," [00:48:32] even though we have [00:48:33] prenatal care [00:48:34] deserts, even [00:48:35] though there's a lot of [00:48:36] reasons it can be hard to [00:48:37] get prenatal care.[00:48:38]

So it's just, [00:48:39] again, you have that [00:48:40] tunnel vision, [00:48:41] and you start to [00:48:42] just focus in on this [00:48:43] is a, a [00:48:44] bad woman, a bad [00:48:45] wife, a bad [00:48:46] mother, and [00:48:47] deserves to be [00:48:48] [00:48:49] punished

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. The, [00:48:50] the, to talk about that [00:48:51] point about prenatal [00:48:52] care, I have a friend [00:48:53] of mine, and, [00:48:54] uh, she's a Black woman, [00:48:55] and she looks great [00:48:56] for her age, [00:48:57] right? But she [00:48:58] was [00:48:59] older, [00:49:00] and the [00:49:01] doctor [00:49:02] marked her down [00:49:03] as younger [00:49:04] and didn't [00:49:05] factor in that [00:49:06] she would need [00:49:07] special prenatal [00:49:08] care because she was [00:49:09] 40 [00:49:10] plus. [00:49:11] And then it wasn't [00:49:12] until, like, [00:49:13] she spoke to the [00:49:14] doctor and was like, "Wait a [00:49:15] minute.

Aren't I supposed to [00:49:16] be do- [00:49:17] getting this, this, this, [00:49:18] this, and this?" He [00:49:19] was like, "No. You're what? [00:49:20] 32 years old?" [00:49:21] "No, I'm [00:49:22] 42 years old." [00:49:23] [00:49:24] so yeah, [00:49:25] that's, that's another [00:49:26] reason why [00:49:27] might not [00:49:28] get proper [00:49:29] prenatal care[00:49:30]

Valena Beety: Well, yeah. And then if [00:49:31] something happened to [00:49:32] that baby, then that [00:49:33] could be held against [00:49:34] her, right? [00:49:35] Why didn't you get the [00:49:36] prenatal [00:49:37] care?

Hospital Drug Tests Can Punish Moms For Medicine They Received 🏥💉👶

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:49:38]

Bruce Anthony: speaking of [00:49:39] prenatal care, the mothers [00:49:40] are losing [00:49:41] newborns over [00:49:42] drugs the hospital [00:49:43] gave

Valena Beety: [00:49:44] Yeah.

Bruce Anthony: [00:49:45] Uh, the state has a [00:49:46] duty to [00:49:47] investigate, so where's the line [00:49:48] between protecting [00:49:49] kids and punishing [00:49:50] mothers?[00:49:51]

Valena Beety: [00:49:52] Yeah. So [00:49:53] we have these [00:49:54] pretty vague [00:49:55] drug tests at [00:49:56] hospitals, [00:49:57] [00:49:58] that, [00:49:59] for example, at my [00:50:00] local hospital [00:50:01] here, you know, I'm in [00:50:02] rural [00:50:03] Indiana, and in my local [00:50:04] hospital, there's [00:50:05] definitely been women [00:50:06] who have [00:50:07] had a [00:50:08] C-section or [00:50:09] had a difficult [00:50:10] birth and got an [00:50:11] epidural, which [00:50:12] is, you know [00:50:13] [00:50:14] fentanyl, morphine is part of [00:50:15] the epidural.

[00:50:16] Uh, and then they [00:50:17] have a healthy baby, [00:50:18] but [00:50:19] they test [00:50:20] positive. They themselves test [00:50:21] positive in the drug test. [00:50:22] Uh, [00:50:23] and the hospital [00:50:24] says, "Well, [00:50:25] we don't [00:50:26] know if [00:50:27] you came in and you [00:50:28] already took those drugs [00:50:29] or if it's what we [00:50:30] gave you." [00:50:31] Uh, so [00:50:32] these drug tests can [00:50:33] be really [00:50:34] unreliable. Also, if you have a [00:50:35] prescription [00:50:36] the [00:50:37] prescription could bring it [00:50:38] up.

Uh, [00:50:39] that could lead to a drug [00:50:40] test that again [00:50:41] separates you from your [00:50:42] children, could lead to [00:50:43] criminal charges [00:50:44] of child [00:50:45] abuse [00:50:46] of fetal [00:50:47] harm, even [00:50:48] when you have a healthy [00:50:49] baby. So it's not [00:50:50] about is there [00:50:51] an actual harm [00:50:52] to a child. [00:50:53] It's, well, is [00:50:54] there a risk [00:50:55] of a possible [00:50:56] harm? [00:50:57] And yeah, [00:50:58] it's important to [00:50:59] protect children, but, [00:51:00] uh, I also [00:51:01] think-- I-- So there's [00:51:02] a great organization [00:51:03] called [00:51:04] Movement for [00:51:05] Family Power, [00:51:06] and I [00:51:07] heard [00:51:08] their, [00:51:09] uh, attorney [00:51:10] say, [00:51:11] "Okay, [00:51:12] so if [00:51:13] you're, you [00:51:14] know, a white [00:51:15] upper middle class [00:51:16] person, you know, [00:51:17] living in the suburbs, [00:51:18] what do you [00:51:19] think will [00:51:20] provide [00:51:21] safety for your child?[00:51:22]

Do you think police [00:51:23] coming to your home is [00:51:24] gonna create [00:51:25] safety? Do you think [00:51:26] Child Protective [00:51:27] Services checking [00:51:28] in on you every [00:51:29] week [00:51:30] making sure that [00:51:31] you are in [00:51:32] compliance with XYZ, is [00:51:33] that gonna create [00:51:34] safety? Is that the world that you [00:51:35] want?" [00:51:36] Uh, and her [00:51:37] point is that a lot of [00:51:38] this is really about [00:51:39] targeting certain people [00:51:40] to surveil [00:51:41] them, to control [00:51:42] them, and ultimately [00:51:43] to punish them, and [00:51:44] not about [00:51:45] creating safety for [00:51:46] [00:51:47] children.

[00:51:48] [00:51:49] [00:51:50] [00:51:51] [00:51:52] [00:51:53] [00:51:54] [00:51:55]

Bruce Anthony: So that's where your [00:51:56] book, uh, [00:51:57] argues that this [00:51:58] really [00:51:59] is poor [00:52:00] people and people of [00:52:01] color are hit the [00:52:02] hardest [00:52:03] from these type [00:52:04] of [00:52:05] policies. [00:52:06] How can [00:52:07] we improve upon [00:52:08] that? Because you bring it [00:52:09] up, there are [00:52:10] prenatal [00:52:11] deserts, right? [00:52:12] People-- When people [00:52:13] live in [00:52:14] metropolitan cities, [00:52:15] they're like, "Oh, this, I [00:52:16] can just go down the road [00:52:17] and I can get this or [00:52:18] that."

They don't [00:52:19] understand in these rural [00:52:20] areas where things [00:52:21] are way more [00:52:22] spread out, [00:52:23] [00:52:24] stuff that you need may [00:52:25] not [00:52:26] be as [00:52:27] easy to get [00:52:28] to [00:52:29] as it [00:52:30] [00:52:31] be[00:52:32]

Valena Beety: Yeah, [00:52:33] [00:52:34] absolutely. Uh, well, [00:52:35] if you [00:52:36] know someone [00:52:37] who's-- [00:52:38] Well, to, to back up, [00:52:39] a couple different things. [00:52:40] If you know someone [00:52:41] who's criminally [00:52:42] charged [00:52:43] try to [00:52:44] help out the defense. [00:52:45] It's something called community [00:52:46] defense, [00:52:47] uh, where [00:52:48] community members [00:52:49] can say, "Hey, you [00:52:50] might not [00:52:51] know [00:52:52] Felina Beatty's medical [00:52:53] records.[00:52:54]

Here's this [00:52:55] information. She [00:52:56] actually has [00:52:57] a [00:52:58] certain disability," [00:52:59] or, "There's something you need to [00:53:00] know about her." [00:53:01] Or you may [00:53:02] not know [00:53:03] that she is [00:53:04] a Sunday school [00:53:05] teacher, and we have three [00:53:06] people who are gonna [00:53:07] testify and [00:53:08] can write reports or [00:53:09] letters or [00:53:10] videos about [00:53:11] what a good [00:53:12] person she is [00:53:13] and how [00:53:14] great she is around [00:53:15] children.[00:53:16]

All this [00:53:17] additional [00:53:18] information and [00:53:19] evidence [00:53:20] that, as we said, [00:53:21] defense attorneys can [00:53:22] be overwhelmed, [00:53:23] overloaded, [00:53:24] and [00:53:25] the change, [00:53:26] you know, you have to [00:53:27] be working on this case [00:53:28] before that guilty [00:53:29] plea. [00:53:30] [00:53:31] And a [00:53:32] lot of cases end in a [00:53:33] guilty plea, so you [00:53:34] gotta work early on. [00:53:35] So that's one

How Doctors And Nurses Can Stop Turning Patients Into Suspects 🩺🤝🛑

Valena Beety: thing. [00:53:36] Another is [00:53:37] [00:53:38] nurses and doctors [00:53:39] being trained [00:53:40] on what their [00:53:41] responsibilities are.[00:53:42]

I mean, Bruce, I [00:53:43] appreciate you saying, you know, [00:53:44] what about looking out [00:53:45] for these [00:53:46] babies? [00:53:47] And [00:53:48] doctors and [00:53:49] nurses need to [00:53:50] know [00:53:51] what's [00:53:52] expected as [00:53:53] a mandatory [00:53:54] reporter and what's [00:53:55] not. [00:53:56] So [00:53:57] bringing police [00:53:58] into [00:53:59] someone's, [00:54:00] [00:54:01] uh, [00:54:02] room in the [00:54:03] hospital, [00:54:04] that's not [00:54:05] required of [00:54:06] doctors, and in fact, that [00:54:07] violates [00:54:08] the [00:54:09] patient [00:54:10] privilege doctor [00:54:11] or pa- what am I [00:54:12] saying?

[00:54:13] The, the privilege [00:54:14] between, [00:54:15] uh, the patient and the [00:54:16] doctor of privacy.[00:54:17]

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:54:18]

Valena Beety: So there's [00:54:19] more training [00:54:20] by [00:54:21] doctors, by [00:54:22] nurses, for doctors [00:54:23] and nurses, [00:54:24] like Physicians for [00:54:25] Reproductive Health, [00:54:26] uh, that [00:54:27] really, okay, what [00:54:28] does this mean? [00:54:29] [00:54:30] Also, we [00:54:31] know that moms who [00:54:32] go to, [00:54:33] uh, public [00:54:34] hospitals [00:54:35] are more likely to [00:54:36] be reported [00:54:37] than a [00:54:38] mom who goes to her [00:54:39] private [00:54:40] OBGYN who says, [00:54:41] "Oh, she tested [00:54:42] positive for marijuana, [00:54:43] but I [00:54:44] know Felina's been [00:54:45] having really bad [00:54:46] nausea, and [00:54:47] she's taking that, [00:54:48] and she's having a [00:54:49] healthy pregnancy.

[00:54:50] I'm not gonna call it [00:54:51] in." Well, if I [00:54:52] go to a public [00:54:53] hospital where it's just [00:54:54] whatever doctor's [00:54:55] assigned to you, they're like, [00:54:56] "Oh, positive drug [00:54:57] screen," [00:54:58] making the call. [00:54:59] So these are [00:55:00] all things that, [00:55:01] that could change and that I [00:55:02] think need to

Diaper Rash Photos And 126 Years: The Roseberline Turenne Case 📸🔒😱

Valena Beety: change.[00:55:03]

Bruce Anthony: We [00:55:04] talked about women, [00:55:05] we talked about poor [00:55:06] people, but [00:55:07] we haven't, [00:55:08] outside [00:55:09] of the, the [00:55:10] case with, [00:55:11] uh, [00:55:12] Leah Stubbs, [00:55:13] we haven't talked [00:55:14] about queer people. [00:55:15] Now, queer people are [00:55:16] serving [00:55:17] decades for crimes [00:55:18] that they... that [00:55:19] never happened.

Valena Beety: Yeah[00:55:20]

Bruce Anthony: [00:55:21] How much of these [00:55:22] sentences was about who [00:55:23] they were, [00:55:24] and what's [00:55:25] one rule [00:55:26] you'd change [00:55:27] tomorrow [00:55:28] [00:55:29] uh, [00:55:30] the way [00:55:31] we view [00:55:32] queer [00:55:33] people in the criminal [00:55:34] justice system?[00:55:35]

Valena Beety: Yeah. [00:55:36] So this is our [00:55:37] common thread today, [00:55:38] right? [00:55:39] That these [00:55:40] charges, when there [00:55:41] is no crime, it's [00:55:42] all about [00:55:43] identity [00:55:44] and junk [00:55:45] science and tunnel [00:55:46] vision. [00:55:47] And I, [00:55:48] I hope listeners will [00:55:49] remember this next case [00:55:50] because she [00:55:51] has a hearing in [00:55:52] November in [00:55:53] Maryland. Uh, and [00:55:54] it's [00:55:55] Roseberline Turenne. [00:55:56] Yeah. And [00:55:57] she was [00:55:58] 19 years [00:55:59] old, uh, [00:56:00] a daycare [00:56:01] assistant, and [00:56:02] this is a [00:56:03] Black Haitian [00:56:04] queer woman.[00:56:05]

And she's [00:56:06] working at the daycare, [00:56:07] and she [00:56:08] takes eight [00:56:09] photos [00:56:10] of kiddos with [00:56:11] diaper rash [00:56:12] to document for her [00:56:13] boss, [00:56:14] uh, and for the boss to be [00:56:15] able to show to, to [00:56:16] parents. [00:56:17] She never [00:56:18] [00:56:19] messages the [00:56:20] photos, just [00:56:21] shows them on [00:56:22] the phone [00:56:23] itself. [00:56:24] She doesn't share the [00:56:25] photos. But [00:56:26] [00:56:27] of her [00:56:28] coworkers [00:56:29] calls the police, [00:56:30]

Bruce Anthony: Mm.

Valena Beety: [00:56:31] this turns [00:56:32] into [00:56:33] child [00:56:34] pornography charges [00:56:35] against [00:56:36] Roseberline[00:56:37]

Bruce Anthony: [00:56:38] I...

Valena Beety: [00:56:39] Yeah.[00:56:40]

Bruce Anthony: So this is right down [00:56:41] the road for me. [00:56:42] Uh, [00:56:43] so [00:56:44] [00:56:45] couldn't her boss [00:56:46] that she showed the [00:56:47] pictures to say, [00:56:48] "Oh, yes, this was [00:56:49] documented,"

Valena Beety: [00:56:50] Yeah

Bruce Anthony: and, [00:56:51] and shouldn't [00:56:52] that [00:56:53] drop the case [00:56:54] right then and there?

Valena Beety: [00:56:55] Yeah. I mean, this goes [00:56:56] back to that tunnel [00:56:57] vision that you're like, [00:56:58] "This had to have been a [00:56:59] crime. [00:57:00] These photos were [00:57:01] taken for sexual [00:57:02] gratification, [00:57:03] no other purpose." [00:57:04] Uh, doesn't-- [00:57:05] Again, you're excluding [00:57:06] any of the evidence that shows [00:57:07] the person is innocent, [00:57:08] right? 'Cause you're like, [00:57:09] "Nope, this is a, a [00:57:10] bad person [00:57:11] a bad [00:57:12] queer," et [00:57:13] cetera.

[00:57:14] Uh, and so [00:57:15] they-- she took it to [00:57:16] trial, right? Of [00:57:17] course she did, 'cause she was like, [00:57:18] "I, I mean, [00:57:19] I'm gonna win this case. [00:57:20] Like, why is a jury [00:57:21] possibly gonna [00:57:22] think that, you know, I'm a [00:57:23] daycare worker, [00:57:24] I, uh, [00:57:25] have no history of [00:57:26] child abuse. I [00:57:27] have [00:57:28] [00:57:29] 145,000 [00:57:30] photos [00:57:31] on my phone, [00:57:32] and eight [00:57:33] of them, [00:57:34] the eight diaper rash [00:57:35] photos, those are the [00:57:36] only photos I have of [00:57:37] children.

No [00:57:38] searches for [00:57:39] child [00:57:40] pornography. I mean, [00:57:41] again, no sketchy [00:57:42] behavior." [00:57:43] Nothing. [00:57:44] None of the signs that [00:57:45] we normally have in child [00:57:46] pornography [00:57:47] cases. [00:57:48] So of course she was gonna [00:57:49] win, but the [00:57:50] prosecution [00:57:51] argued, "Nah, [00:57:52] because [00:57:53] she's [00:57:54] gay or [00:57:55] bisexual, [00:57:56] that [00:57:57] shows she took these [00:57:58] photos for sexual [00:57:59] gratification.

That's [00:58:00] what proves [00:58:01] it." And the jury [00:58:02] agreed, [00:58:03] and the judge [00:58:04] sentenced her to [00:58:05] [00:58:06] 126 years in [00:58:07] prison.

Bruce Anthony: [00:58:08] Jesus. And

Valena Beety: Her [00:58:09] entire life.

Her [00:58:10] entire life.

Bruce Anthony: is this [00:58:11] in?[00:58:12] [00:58:13]

This has to be in [00:58:14] rural Maryland

Valena Beety: [00:58:15] It is, but [00:58:16] it's more the... I thought [00:58:17] it was [00:58:18] near West Virginia, but it's [00:58:19] actually more of a coastal [00:58:20] area. [00:58:21] But I can, I [00:58:22] can let you

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, it's, [00:58:23] it's g- it's [00:58:24] out near Ocean [00:58:25] City. Uh, o- [00:58:26] okay. That, [00:58:27] just, wow. [00:58:28] 100... So [00:58:29] now [00:58:30] you say she's [00:58:31] got a, [00:58:32] case now to [00:58:33]

Valena Beety: [00:58:34] Yeah.

Bruce Anthony: her case?[00:58:35]

Valena Beety: Yep, [00:58:36] yep. Which as I [00:58:37] said, that's an uphill [00:58:38] battle. But [00:58:39] but her [00:58:40] attorney's trying. [00:58:41] She's got an attorney with [00:58:42] the Office of the Public [00:58:43] Defender. [00:58:44] [00:58:45] He's [00:58:46] trying and [00:58:47] it's-- She has a hearing in [00:58:48] November. Yeah[00:58:49]

Bruce Anthony: [00:58:50] It just seems [00:58:51] like, uh, [00:58:52] when we-- [00:58:53] when [00:58:54] America, [00:58:55] by and large, [00:58:56] generally speaking, [00:58:57] looks at the [00:58:58] LGBTQ+ [00:58:59] community, it [00:59:00] [00:59:01] demonizes [00:59:02] [00:59:03] before [00:59:04] even [00:59:05] [00:59:06] [00:59:07] examining their own [00:59:08] biases. [00:59:09] And, and, and [00:59:10] from what you're [00:59:11] kinda saying, [00:59:12] this goes into the [00:59:13] justice system [00:59:14] where it o- [00:59:15] she [00:59:16] obviously had to [00:59:17] be a, [00:59:18] a, a, a [00:59:19] child pornographer [00:59:20] because [00:59:21] she's queer.[00:59:22]

Like that's, that's, [00:59:23] uh, [00:59:24] that's what, [00:59:25] that's what they [00:59:26] do, right? They're [00:59:27] drag queens. We gotta [00:59:28] make sure that they can't [00:59:29] read books to our [00:59:30] kids [00:59:31] because they're gonna harm our [00:59:32] kids. Meanwhile, [00:59:33] statistics [00:59:34] say[00:59:35]

the person [00:59:36] harming your kids is [00:59:37] not a queer [00:59:38] person,

[00:59:39] typically. Yep. [00:59:40]

Valena Beety: straight

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:41] Yep. [00:59:42] Yep, straight men, [00:59:43] I-

Valena Beety: if we pay [00:59:44] attention in the news,[00:59:45]

Bruce Anthony: Yep. [00:59:46] Yep. [00:59:47] I, I wanna [00:59:48] ask you this [00:59:49] question because I feel like [00:59:50] it's really, really [00:59:51] important, and [00:59:52] your work with the [00:59:53] Innocence Projects [00:59:54] and, and all of [00:59:55] these [00:59:56] cases that you're trying to [00:59:57] overturn these [00:59:58] wrongful

Coming Home Exonerated: Why A Deodorant Aisle Is Overwhelming 🛒🧴😵

Bruce Anthony: convictions.[00:59:59]

When somebody [01:00:00] comes home

Valena Beety: Hmm.[01:00:01]

Bruce Anthony: [01:00:02] after years [01:00:03] inside [01:00:04] [01:00:05] for something [01:00:06] that [01:00:07] they never did, something that [01:00:08] never happened,

Valena Beety: [01:00:09] Yeah

Bruce Anthony: [01:00:10] one [01:00:11] thing that they have to [01:00:12] learn to enjoy [01:00:13] again?[01:00:14]

Valena Beety: [01:00:15] [01:00:16] Hmm. So I can think [01:00:17] of a couple [01:00:18] things. [01:00:19] Uh, [01:00:20] one of [01:00:21] them is going [01:00:22] to a [01:00:23] restaurant [01:00:24] where there's a lot of [01:00:25] people and [01:00:26] sitting [01:00:27] at a table where [01:00:28] you may not be able to [01:00:29] have your back [01:00:30] against a wall, you [01:00:31] know? [01:00:32] That could [01:00:33] be one thing. [01:00:34] But something [01:00:35] that [01:00:36] stands out to [01:00:37] me is, [01:00:38] uh, I like [01:00:39] to shop. [01:00:40] Folks like to shop, [01:00:41] you know, go to a [01:00:42] [01:00:43] store.

What you gonna pick? [01:00:44] [01:00:45] Uh, that [01:00:46] shopping can be [01:00:47] so [01:00:48] overwhelming, like even just [01:00:49] picking a deodorant [01:00:50] or picking [01:00:51] a body [01:00:52] wash, because you [01:00:53] haven't been able to [01:00:54] make that choice for [01:00:55] how many years, [01:00:56] and now [01:00:57] there's like, [01:00:58] you know, rows [01:00:59] and rows of [01:01:00] options, [01:01:01] and it-- [01:01:02] that you're just like, [01:01:03] "I, I [01:01:04] have no idea. I [01:01:05] have no idea [01:01:06] how to [01:01:07] pick."[01:01:08] [01:01:09]

So [01:01:10] that, that [01:01:11] stands out to me, [01:01:12] that it's like [01:01:13] everything has been [01:01:14] so narrowed down in [01:01:15] your life that you can [01:01:16] only have a [01:01:17] certain bar of soap [01:01:18] and, [01:01:19] [01:01:20] that, you know, when the [01:01:21] world opens back up [01:01:22] again, it, [01:01:23] it can be a [01:01:24] lot.

Bruce Anthony: So the option, [01:01:25] the option of [01:01:26] choice [01:01:27] becomes overwhelming. [01:01:28]

Valena Beety: Yeah

Bruce Anthony: Wow, [01:01:29] that's incredible to [01:01:30] think [01:01:31] about. All right, Velena, I just [01:01:32] want to ask one [01:01:33] final question, [01:01:34] 'cause we've covered a [01:01:35] lot today. [01:01:36] We've gone all [01:01:37] over.

This was an [01:01:38] ADHD conversation [01:01:39] on my part. I'm sorry [01:01:40] that, uh, I lost a [01:01:41] little bit of the structure. But [01:01:42] what is it that [01:01:43] you want to [01:01:44] leave the [01:01:45] audience with, [01:01:46] today [01:01:47] in this [01:01:48] conversation?

Valena Beety: Ah, [01:01:49] thanks. There's a couple [01:01:50] things. So one is

The Prosecutors We Elect Decide Whose Grief Becomes A Crime 📣👀✅

Valena Beety: we're [01:01:51] coming up on [01:01:52] elections, [01:01:53] and who you elect as [01:01:54] your local prosecutor [01:01:55] matters. So [01:01:56] not every prosecutor [01:01:57] is going to be [01:01:58] going after [01:01:59] miscarriages [01:02:00] and seeing if a [01:02:01] miscarriage is an [01:02:02] abortion, seeing if it's [01:02:03] murder. [01:02:04] Uh, so it [01:02:05] matters. It matters [01:02:06] who you elect [01:02:07] as your local [01:02:08] prosecutor and [01:02:09] speaking out, [01:02:10] uh, to them about, [01:02:11] "Listen, we don't-- we [01:02:12] want you focusing on [01:02:13] homicides."

You [01:02:14] know, like, [01:02:15] what? Nearly [01:02:16] 40% of homicides in [01:02:17] the US remain [01:02:18] unsolved. Focus [01:02:19] on that. [01:02:20] Don't focus on, [01:02:21] you know, pregnancy [01:02:22] behaviors. And the [01:02:23] other thing is there's [01:02:24] great [01:02:25] organizations working on these [01:02:26] issues. One is Pregnancy [01:02:27] Justice, [01:02:28] another [01:02:29] is Movement for Family [01:02:30] Power. So I [01:02:31] encourage folks to look them up.[01:02:32]

And if [01:02:33] anyone has questions for [01:02:34] me, you can find [01:02:35] me at, @ [01:02:36] [01:02:37] velenabeattie [01:02:38] or [01:02:39] Velenabeattieauthor [01:02:40] on your social [01:02:41] media platforms, your [01:02:42] favorite platform, [01:02:43] and feel free to reach [01:02:44] out to me at Indiana [01:02:45] University.[01:02:46]

Bruce Anthony: Valena, [01:02:47] I wanna thank you [01:02:48] so much for coming [01:02:49] on the show. [01:02:50] This [01:02:51] conversation was [01:02:52] enlightening. A [01:02:53] little, a [01:02:54] little [01:02:55] disheartening to, to [01:02:56] realize [01:02:57] that, [01:02:58] for [01:02:59] somebody who was already [01:03:00] a cynic of the [01:03:01] criminal justice [01:03:02] system, to realize it [01:03:03] is a little ev- [01:03:04] it's a little bit more [01:03:05] deeper. But to [01:03:06] also [01:03:07] be [01:03:08] hopeful, because there are [01:03:09] people like you that [01:03:10] are out there [01:03:11] fighting [01:03:12] for [01:03:13] those people that [01:03:14] have suffered those [01:03:15] injustices.

[01:03:16] So thank you so [01:03:17] much for coming [01:03:18] on the show, not only [01:03:19] sharing your story, [01:03:20] but also sharing your [01:03:21] work. I know [01:03:22] I've learned a lot, [01:03:23] and I know my audience [01:03:24] will have [01:03:25] learned a lot as well, so [01:03:26] thank you so much

Valena Beety: [01:03:27] Yeah, thank

Closing Thoughts: Certainty Ain't Justice, It's Tunnel Vision 🎤🧠🛑

Valena Beety: you

Bruce Anthony: [01:03:28] Before we end, I [01:03:29] wanna leave you with [01:03:30] just one last [01:03:31] thought. We [01:03:32] opened this show in a [01:03:33] hospital room, [01:03:34] and after sitting [01:03:35] with Velina, [01:03:36] I realized [01:03:37] this conversation [01:03:38] was never really about [01:03:39] courtrooms. [01:03:40] It was about who [01:03:41] gets believed. [01:03:42] A mother in [01:03:43] Indiana tried to bust [01:03:44] through her son's [01:03:45] window with a tricycle [01:03:46] to save him from a [01:03:47] fire, [01:03:48] and the [01:03:49] prosecution's proof was [01:03:50] that she didn't say [01:03:51] enough words [01:03:52] of regret.[01:03:53]

A woman in [01:03:54] Nevada lost a [01:03:55] pregnancy and ended up [01:03:56] confessing to lifting heavy [01:03:57] weights [01:03:58] and eating too much [01:03:59] cinnamon. [01:04:00] A 19-year-old [01:04:01] daycare worker in [01:04:02] Maryland took eight diaper [01:04:03] rash photos for [01:04:04] a boss [01:04:05] and got [01:04:06] 126 years. [01:04:07] And [01:04:08] then there is LeRionne [01:04:09] Brooks. He spent [01:04:10] close to 20 [01:04:11] years in prison for [01:04:12] a crime he didn't [01:04:13] commit.

His [01:04:14] mother passed less than a [01:04:15] year after he came [01:04:16] home, [01:04:17] and he didn't talk [01:04:18] about anger. [01:04:19] He said [01:04:20] she could finally put her [01:04:21] hammer down. [01:04:22] Velina said [01:04:23] something that [01:04:24] stuck with me. [01:04:25] Prosecutors get built [01:04:26] up like they're not [01:04:27] allowed to be wrong. [01:04:28] I know one [01:04:29] prosecutor that's fictional [01:04:30] that I absolutely [01:04:31] love, and that's Jack [01:04:32] McCoy.

He could [01:04:33] do no wrong in my [01:04:34] eyes, but [01:04:35] if you're [01:04:36] never allowed to be [01:04:37] wrong, [01:04:38] you can [01:04:39] never be [01:04:40] correct. [01:04:41] If you want to [01:04:42] understand how deep [01:04:43] this goes, read her [01:04:44] book, Pink [01:04:45] Crime: Fighting Against the [01:04:46] Criminalization of [01:04:47] Motherhood, Pregnancy, and [01:04:48] Queer Identity. [01:04:49] Not because it's [01:04:50] comfortable, [01:04:51] [01:04:52] because there are real [01:04:53] people, and [01:04:54] some of them are [01:04:55] still waiting.[01:04:56]

But [01:04:57] here's the uncomfortable [01:04:58] part people don't [01:04:59] wanna talk about. [01:05:00] A lot of [01:05:01] us are part of this as [01:05:02] well. [01:05:03] I told y'all I had [01:05:04] to make sure that my [01:05:05] ex-wi- my ex-wife [01:05:06] documented every [01:05:07] bruise from work because [01:05:08] I knew what the [01:05:09] neighbors would think about a [01:05:10] big, bald, Black [01:05:11] man [01:05:12] and a white woman [01:05:13] [01:05:14] having bruises on her [01:05:15] body.

[01:05:16] And I'm the same [01:05:17] dude who binged [01:05:18] Forensic Files [01:05:19] thinking that [01:05:20] they got him [01:05:21] because it was a [01:05:22] good case of [01:05:23] junk science that [01:05:24] I'm later finding [01:05:25] out. [01:05:26] But [01:05:27] we're the neighbors. [01:05:28] We're the [01:05:29] jury. [01:05:30] We're the folks who [01:05:31] skip the local [01:05:32] prosecutor's [01:05:33] race. So [01:05:34] pay attention to who [01:05:35] you elect. [01:05:36] Ask [01:05:37] the questions. [01:05:38] [01:05:39] Check the evidence.[01:05:40]

Because [01:05:41] [01:05:42] certainty ain't [01:05:43] justice. [01:05:44] Sometimes it's [01:05:45] just tunnel vision with [01:05:46] a badge. [01:05:47] Ladies and gentlemen, I [01:05:48] wanna thank you for [01:05:49] listening. I [01:05:50] wanna thank you for [01:05:51] watching, and [01:05:52] until next time, [01:05:53] as [01:05:54] always, [01:05:55] I'll [01:05:56] holla

[01:05:57] Woo! That was one [01:05:58] hell of a show. Thank [01:05:59] you for rocking with [01:06:00] us here on [01:06:01] Unsolicited Perspectives. If [01:06:02] you enjoyed the show, [01:06:03] follow, [01:06:04] subscribe, like, [01:06:05] comment, and [01:06:06] share. Catch the video [01:06:07] podcast and YouTube [01:06:08] exclusives on [01:06:09] YouTube, but the real [01:06:10] party is on our [01:06:11] Patreon and YouTube [01:06:12] membership with [01:06:13] after-hours uncensored [01:06:14] with my sister.

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