The Truth About Greenwashing and Corporate Lies with John Pabon

Interview with John Pabon

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How companies fake caring to win over your trust and your cash 🌍💸🔍

Bruce Anthony: What if a company [00:00:01] wasn't just selling you a [00:00:02] product, [00:00:03] but they were [00:00:04] also selling you a [00:00:05] lie? We gonna [00:00:06] get into it. [00:00:07] Let's get [00:00:08] it

[00:00:09] [00:00:10] [00:00:11] [00:00:12] [00:00:13] [00:00:14] [00:00:15] [00:00:16] [00:00:17] [00:00:18] [00:00:19]

Bruce Anthony: Welcome. [00:00:20] First of [00:00:21] all, welcome. This is [00:00:22] "Unsolicited [00:00:23] Perspectives." I am your [00:00:24] host, Bruce Anthony, [00:00:25] here to lead the [00:00:26] conversation into important [00:00:27] events and [00:00:28] topics that are shaping [00:00:29] today's society. [00:00:30] Join the [00:00:31] conversation and follow us [00:00:32] wherever you get your audio [00:00:33] podcasts. Subscribe to [00:00:34] our YouTube channel for our [00:00:35] video podcast, [00:00:36] YouTube exclusive [00:00:37] content, and our YouTube [00:00:38] membership.

[00:00:39] Rate, [00:00:40] review, like, [00:00:41] comment, [00:00:42] share. Share with your [00:00:43] friends, share with your [00:00:44] family. [00:00:45] Hell, even share [00:00:46] with your enemies. [00:00:47] On today's [00:00:48] episode, I'm talking to [00:00:49] John Pabon, [00:00:50] author and [00:00:51] sustainability [00:00:52] expert. We're gonna be talking [00:00:53] about greenwashing, [00:00:54] the art of making [00:00:55] companies look like they're [00:00:56] doing good, and [00:00:57] how to recognize when [00:00:58] what somebody is [00:00:59] saying and what they're [00:01:00] actually doing are [00:01:01] two different things.[00:01:02]

But that's enough of the [00:01:03] intro. [00:01:04] Let's get to the [00:01:05] show

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Bruce Anthony: [00:01:06] [00:01:07] [00:01:08] [00:01:09] [00:01:10] [00:01:11] [00:01:12] [00:01:13] There is [00:01:14] something uniquely [00:01:15] painful about finding [00:01:16] out that somebody you [00:01:17] believed in [00:01:18] was lying to you. [00:01:19] It doesn't even [00:01:20] have to be some [00:01:21] huge betrayal. [00:01:22] Maybe it's a friend [00:01:23] who told you that they [00:01:24] had your back, [00:01:25] and you later found [00:01:26] out that they were talking [00:01:27] about you [00:01:28] behind your back. [00:01:29] Maybe it's [00:01:30] somebody you were dating [00:01:31] who told you that they [00:01:32] wanted the same things [00:01:33] that you did, [00:01:34] only for you to [00:01:35] realize that they were telling [00:01:36] you what [00:01:37] you wanted to hear.[00:01:38]

Or maybe it's [00:01:39] somebody you looked up [00:01:40] to who [00:01:41] spent years [00:01:42] telling you that they [00:01:43] believed in [00:01:44] something, and then [00:01:45] you watch their [00:01:46] actions tell a completely [00:01:47] different story. [00:01:48] And [00:01:49] that's the part that really [00:01:50] gets you. [00:01:51] It's not just that they [00:01:52] lied, [00:01:53] it's that you [00:01:54] believed them. [00:01:55] You [00:01:56] gave them [00:01:57] your [00:01:58] trust. [00:01:59] And once somebody [00:02:00] has your trust, [00:02:01] they don't have to [00:02:02] convince you every single [00:02:03] time about certain [00:02:04] things.

[00:02:05] You start doing the [00:02:06] work for them. [00:02:07] You [00:02:08] believe what they tell [00:02:09] you. You [00:02:10] defend them. [00:02:11] You give them the [00:02:12] benefit of a

Why companies sell you trust long before they sell a product 🏢🤝💰

Bruce Anthony: doubt. [00:02:13] You [00:02:14] keep coming back, [00:02:15] and it's [00:02:16] because trust [00:02:17] is [00:02:18] valuable. [00:02:19] But sometimes [00:02:20] the reason somebody's [00:02:21] working so hard to [00:02:22] convince you of something [00:02:23] isn't [00:02:24] because they [00:02:25] care [00:02:26] [00:02:27] It's because [00:02:28] there's something that they [00:02:29] want from you.[00:02:30]

And that's [00:02:31] where this gets real [00:02:32] interesting when we [00:02:33] move from people [00:02:34] to companies. [00:02:35] Because [00:02:36] companies aren't just [00:02:37] selling us products [00:02:38] anymore. They're [00:02:39] selling us [00:02:40] identities. They're [00:02:41] telling us what they [00:02:42] believe. [00:02:43] They're telling us [00:02:44] what they stand for. [00:02:45] They're telling us [00:02:46] that they're [00:02:47] helping the planet.

They're [00:02:48] telling us that they're [00:02:49] committed to [00:02:50] diversity, sometimes. [00:02:51] They're telling [00:02:52] us that they stand [00:02:53] with marginalized [00:02:54] communities, [00:02:55] sometimes. They're [00:02:56] telling us that they're making [00:02:57] the world better. [00:02:58] And [00:02:59] sometimes, [00:03:00] sometimes [00:03:01] [00:03:02] they really are. [00:03:03] [00:03:04] But also, [00:03:05] sometimes [00:03:06] they're not. [00:03:07] Sometimes the [00:03:08] product is only [00:03:09] part of what they're [00:03:10] selling.

They're [00:03:11] selling you the [00:03:12] idea that [00:03:13] buying from them [00:03:14] makes you a [00:03:15] better person. [00:03:16] And if you [00:03:17] believe that, [00:03:18] you're giving them [00:03:19] something far more [00:03:20] valuable than [00:03:21] your money. [00:03:22] You've [00:03:23] given them your [00:03:24] trust. [00:03:25] That's where this idea of [00:03:26] greenwashing comes [00:03:27] in. A [00:03:28] company can make itself [00:03:29] look environmentally [00:03:30] responsible without [00:03:31] actually doing the work [00:03:32] necessary to [00:03:33] deserve that [00:03:34] [00:03:35] reputation. They can give you [00:03:36] the campaigns, [00:03:37] they can give you the [00:03:38] commercials, they can give [00:03:39] you the [00:03:40] sustainability reports.

They [00:03:41] can give you the [00:03:42] beautiful language about [00:03:43] changing the [00:03:44] world. And if you [00:03:45] believe the story, [00:03:46] you might give them [00:03:47] your money [00:03:48] because you believe [00:03:49] supporting something [00:03:50] bigger than [00:03:51] yourself [00:03:52] is important. [00:03:53] But if you pay [00:03:54] attention, and [00:03:55] sometimes it's [00:03:56] suddenly, some of [00:03:57] these commitments start [00:03:58] disappearing. [00:03:59] Some [00:04:00] companies stop [00:04:01] talking about it. [00:04:02] Some cut [00:04:03] programs. [00:04:04] Some back [00:04:05] away from the [00:04:06] very things that they [00:04:07] loudly told us [00:04:08] that they believed in. [00:04:09] So what [00:04:10] happens when a company [00:04:11] tells you one [00:04:12] thing, but their [00:04:13] actions tell you [00:04:14] something completely [00:04:15] different?

[00:04:16] That's greenwashing. [00:04:17] [00:04:18] It can also be [00:04:19] DEI washing. [00:04:20] It's [00:04:21] performative [00:04:22] activism. [00:04:23] Or is [00:04:24] there a bigger system [00:04:25] at work here? [00:04:26] Because maybe the [00:04:27] real question [00:04:28] isn't simply, is this [00:04:29] company lying? [00:04:30] Maybe [00:04:31] the question is, [00:04:32] what do they get [00:04:33] from me if I [00:04:34] believe them? [00:04:35] [00:04:36] And that's what we're gonna [00:04:37] talk about today. [00:04:38] My guest has spent [00:04:39] more than two [00:04:40] decades studying [00:04:41] this world from the [00:04:42] inside.

Jon [00:04:43] Pabon started his [00:04:44] career from, with the [00:04:45] United Nations [00:04:46] and worked for [00:04:47] many different [00:04:48] Fortune 500 [00:04:49] companies, [00:04:50] governments, and [00:04:51] organizations around the [00:04:52] world, and eventually [00:04:53] founded his own [00:04:54] company, [00:04:55] Fulcrum Strategy [00:04:56] Advisors. He's [00:04:57] also the author of [00:04:58] three books, [00:04:59] Sustainability For The [00:05:00] Rest of Us, The [00:05:01] Great Greenwashing, [00:05:02] and his newest [00:05:03] book, [00:05:04] Strategic [00:05:05] Sustainability. So [00:05:06] today we're gonna be talking about [00:05:07] what happens when [00:05:08] doing good becomes a [00:05:09] business strategy, [00:05:10] how companies [00:05:11] convince us they're [00:05:12] doing good [00:05:13] things that they aren't [00:05:14] actually doing, [00:05:15] and how we can [00:05:16] recognize the [00:05:17] difference. [00:05:18] And [00:05:19] ultimately, [00:05:20] how [00:05:21] do you know [00:05:22] who to [00:05:23] believe? So [00:05:24] without further [00:05:25] ado, [00:05:26] Jon

Meet John Pabon and learn how the big brands bamboozle all of us 🎭🛍🧐

Bruce Anthony: [00:05:27] Pabon [00:05:28]

As I said at the [00:05:29] top, I'm here with John [00:05:30] Pabon. [00:05:31] He has worked [00:05:32] in Fortune [00:05:33] 500 [00:05:34] boardrooms. He's an [00:05:35] author, written a [00:05:36] lot of books [00:05:37] on [00:05:38] sustainability and [00:05:39] greenwashing. We're gonna get [00:05:40] into how these [00:05:41] institutions [00:05:42] bambooles- [00:05:43] bamboozle [00:05:44] us and fool [00:05:45] us. And, [00:05:46] and I'm excited to [00:05:47] get into this [00:05:48] conversation because I'ma [00:05:49] be real honest, [00:05:50] I'm not [00:05:51] ignorant to [00:05:52] companies [00:05:53] bamboozling us.[00:05:54]

Uh, but I [00:05:55] am entering-- uh, [00:05:56] ignorant in a [00:05:57] lot of these [00:05:58] topics that we're gonna talk [00:05:59] about today. So [00:06:00] I, I'm gonna [00:06:01] learn. I know my [00:06:02] audience is gonna learn. So [00:06:03] John, it's my [00:06:04] pleasure to have you on the [00:06:05] show to talk about these [00:06:06] issues

John Pabon: [00:06:07] No, thanks for having me. We need to [00:06:08] use bamboozle [00:06:09] much more than we do[00:06:10]

Bruce Anthony: Look, [00:06:11] I, and I, I'm gonna be [00:06:12] very honest. I stole [00:06:13] that from Spike Lee, [00:06:14] watching that [00:06:15] movie Bamboozled from back [00:06:16] in the day. I, uh, [00:06:17] and, and if [00:06:18] you know the [00:06:19] [00:06:20] context of that [00:06:21] movie, it [00:06:22] falls in line with a [00:06:23] lot of what we're gonna be [00:06:24] discussing [00:06:25] today [00:06:26] of [00:06:27] tomfoolery [00:06:28] and [00:06:29] sleight of hand, and [00:06:30] look over here [00:06:31] while my hand is in [00:06:32] your pocket.

[00:06:33] Um, [00:06:34] so but before we [00:06:35] get into all of [00:06:36] that, [00:06:37] John, I [00:06:38] start every [00:06:39] conversation by going [00:06:40] back to the beginning. [00:06:41] 'Cause [00:06:42] you're in Australia [00:06:43] right now, [00:06:44] but you grew up in [00:06:45] SoCo, [00:06:46] Southern Cal. [00:06:47] What was [00:06:48] your childhood like, [00:06:49] your home, your [00:06:50] upbringing, [00:06:51] and how did [00:06:52] [00:06:53] lessons from [00:06:54] you growing up [00:06:55] lead to [00:06:56] what you [00:06:57] became now in [00:06:58] life?[00:06:59]

John Pabon: Yeah, it's a really [00:07:00] interesting question, right? [00:07:01] And I think [00:07:02] I've, I've [00:07:03] thought about this [00:07:04] quite a bit in terms of [00:07:05] do I have kind of a, [00:07:06] not a, not a [00:07:07] villain origin story, but an [00:07:08] origin story as to [00:07:09] why I do what I [00:07:10] do. And, and [00:07:11] I'm sure a [00:07:12] lot of people say this, but I [00:07:13] think it goes back to my [00:07:14] mom. She was just a [00:07:15] very [00:07:16] big proponent [00:07:17] of [00:07:18] equity and equality for sort [00:07:19] of everybody.

[00:07:20] And, uh, I think about my [00:07:21] family and my [00:07:22] sisters and, and my brother, [00:07:23] and everybody sort of [00:07:24] went into some [00:07:25] sort of a caring [00:07:26] profession [00:07:27] in some respect as an [00:07:28] adult. So she, [00:07:29] she must have had [00:07:30] an impact somehow [00:07:31] in how she, she brought [00:07:32] us up. So I think really [00:07:33] that's kind of it. [00:07:34] And then Southern [00:07:35] California just in [00:07:36] general is a pretty, [00:07:37] at least when I was growing up, [00:07:38] you know, 40-ish years [00:07:39] ago, was a [00:07:40] pretty egalitarian [00:07:41] type of a [00:07:42] society.

You know, it's, it's [00:07:43] fairly [00:07:44] hippie-ish. My mom was a big [00:07:45] hippie, so I [00:07:46] am sure that played into it a [00:07:47] lot as well [00:07:48] to kind of [00:07:49] push me [00:07:50] towards something that's [00:07:51] a bit more [00:07:52] caring than just [00:07:53] working at a corporate [00:07:54] office trying to take money [00:07:55] from people.

Bruce Anthony: [00:07:56] Hmm. [00:07:57] Um, [00:07:58] okay. How does [00:07:59] that [00:08:00] So- Soco kid, [00:08:01] um, [00:08:02] that has a mom that's [00:08:03] a little bit of a [00:08:04] hippie, [00:08:05] um,

John Pabon: [00:08:06] a lot of a hippie. We [00:08:07] didn't even wear, we didn't even wear [00:08:08] shoes at home. [00:08:09] That's the kind of hippie [00:08:10] I'm talking about. We walked around [00:08:11] without shoes, like [00:08:12] outside, that kind [00:08:13] of a hippie.[00:08:14]

Bruce Anthony: Okay. That's also [00:08:15] country. [00:08:16] That's also [00:08:17] country. So, uh, [00:08:18] hippie and country. [00:08:19] Okay, so how [00:08:20] does that [00:08:21] kid end up at the [00:08:22] United [00:08:23] Nations?

John Pabon: [00:08:24] It's a funny [00:08:25] journey, right? [00:08:26] So when I was [00:08:27] in school, I [00:08:28] studied music, so [00:08:29] that's, that's what I did [00:08:30] all through sort of [00:08:31] middle school, high school. [00:08:32] It's what I wanted my [00:08:33] career to be. [00:08:34] And [00:08:35] about a year [00:08:36] into that at [00:08:37] university, I realized, [00:08:38] hey, there's... And [00:08:39] this is gonna [00:08:40] be contrary to what I [00:08:41] literally just said, but I, [00:08:42] I sort of thought to myself, "There's [00:08:43] no money in this," [00:08:44] which is [00:08:45] counterintuitive, but [00:08:46] there really isn't.

It's a really, it's [00:08:47] a really tough slog to [00:08:48] try to be a musician. So I was [00:08:49] like, "Okay, [00:08:50] let's, let's explore a little [00:08:51] bit. You're in college. Figure [00:08:52] out what you want." [00:08:53] And I [00:08:54] went [00:08:55] into sort of political [00:08:56] science as my [00:08:57] very [00:08:58] last [00:08:59] undergraduate requirement course. I [00:09:00] was like, "I, I have no [00:09:01] interest in this stuff. [00:09:02] I, it's just not [00:09:03] for me."

And so I put it [00:09:04] off to the very end, and [00:09:05] I had an instructor, [00:09:06] like I'm sure a lot of people [00:09:07] do, that just [00:09:08] totally changed my [00:09:09] perspective on things. [00:09:10] And they [00:09:11] were [00:09:12] very pro sort of international [00:09:13] organizations and [00:09:14] steered me towards the [00:09:15] United Nations. [00:09:16] So [00:09:17] went to New York [00:09:18] to kind of get close [00:09:19] to the United [00:09:20] Nations to do my [00:09:21] graduate degree, and [00:09:22] [00:09:23] coincidentally found myself [00:09:24] working there as I was doing my [00:09:25] grad degree, and the [00:09:26] rest is kind of [00:09:27] history.

Bruce Anthony: [00:09:28] How [00:09:29] does [00:09:30] that [00:09:31] transformation [00:09:32] work [00:09:33] from a [00:09:34] visual [00:09:35] aspect [00:09:36] of the society [00:09:37] that you're living [00:09:38] around when you, uh, [00:09:39] you're growing up in [00:09:40] Southern California, [00:09:41] which is completely [00:09:42] different than New York and [00:09:43] just the environment [00:09:44] and the, and the [00:09:45] nature and [00:09:46] the, the pace [00:09:47] and pulse of the [00:09:48] city. [00:09:49] How is that [00:09:50] change [00:09:51] for you [00:09:52] personally [00:09:53] to go [00:09:54] from [00:09:55] peace and [00:09:56] love, [00:09:57] to get to [00:09:58] college to say, [00:09:59] "I need some [00:10:00] bread," to [00:10:01] end up in New [00:10:02] York City?[00:10:03]

John Pabon: It's kind [00:10:04] of that, that growth [00:10:05] that I'm sure a lot of people [00:10:06] go through, right? Of, of, [00:10:07] oh my God, I'm an [00:10:08] adult and I actually have to pay for [00:10:09] things. Mom and dad aren't [00:10:10] paying for it anymore. So, [00:10:11] so you, you end up... [00:10:12] And, and this is [00:10:13] something I'm sure we'll get into [00:10:14] in, in a little while. I call [00:10:15] myself a pragmatic [00:10:16] altruist.

I, [00:10:17] I care about [00:10:18] things, absolutely, but [00:10:19] I'm also pretty [00:10:20] realistic about what's [00:10:21] important and, and what we [00:10:22] need to do. You know, you can't [00:10:23] survive in the world without [00:10:24] money, so you [00:10:25] realize that, [00:10:26] uh, pretty quickly when you [00:10:27] leave home. But [00:10:28] absolutely when you're [00:10:29] trying to, [00:10:30] trying to get by in New York [00:10:31] City as, you know, a [00:10:32] 20-something grad [00:10:33] student, you really learn the [00:10:34] importance of money [00:10:35] and saving it and [00:10:36] earning it, and you see it all [00:10:37] around you.

So you're right. It's [00:10:38] the, the visual [00:10:39] aspect of just [00:10:40] that, that massive [00:10:41] switch. And I [00:10:42] don't want any hate [00:10:43] from people from [00:10:44] SoCal, but, uh, I [00:10:45] feel I'm much more East [00:10:46] Coast than West Coast. [00:10:47] So that's kind of [00:10:48] been the trajectory from there [00:10:49] on out too, because [00:10:50] everywhere I've lived since [00:10:51] then has been [00:10:52] essentially [00:10:53] one of the world's mega [00:10:54] cities.

So I think [00:10:55] I've [00:10:56] really kind of [00:10:57] embraced that, [00:10:58] that speed and that [00:10:59] type of life versus [00:11:00] the, the no [00:11:01] shoes on the street, [00:11:02] um, hippie [00:11:03] Southern California life. [00:11:04] I [00:11:05] appreciate the beach, [00:11:06] but yeah, I'd [00:11:07] rather be in a

Bruce Anthony: doesn't love the [00:11:08] beach? Yeah. Um, [00:11:09] uh, how, how [00:11:10] does [00:11:11] that work [00:11:12] for you [00:11:13] to move to [00:11:14] New York, [00:11:15] work for the United [00:11:16] Nations, [00:11:17] which I'm sure [00:11:18] pays, [00:11:19] but then [00:11:20] go to [00:11:21] working in [00:11:22] these [00:11:23] Fortune [00:11:24] 500 [00:11:25] boardrooms and then [00:11:26] focusing [00:11:27] specifically, which I [00:11:28] guess still [00:11:29] comes from your [00:11:30] hippie [00:11:31] upbraving, upbringing in [00:11:32] SoCo [00:11:33] to say, "Ah, okay, [00:11:34] I, I gotta make this [00:11:35] money.

[00:11:36] I still wanna make [00:11:37]

From the UN to Shanghai and a first career in sustainability 🌐🏙🌱

Bruce Anthony: the world a better [00:11:38] place. So how [00:11:39] can I do [00:11:40] both at the [00:11:41] same time?" How [00:11:42] did, how did you [00:11:43] make that [00:11:44] transition in New [00:11:45] York, [00:11:46] United [00:11:47] Nations [00:11:48] boardrooms, [00:11:49] studying, uh, on the [00:11:50] ground with [00:11:51] factories and [00:11:52] farms and, and working on [00:11:53] sustainability?[00:11:54]

John Pabon: It [00:11:55] was really by [00:11:56] accident. So [00:11:57] I was in New [00:11:58] York. I, I was at the [00:11:59] United Nations for several [00:12:00] years and realized, [00:12:01] uh, through a lot [00:12:02] of mentorship there [00:12:03] and, and great people, they [00:12:04] sort of said, "Hey, this isn't [00:12:05] really a place you start your [00:12:06] career. It's more a [00:12:07] place where you end your [00:12:08] career, because, [00:12:09] uh, as, as [00:12:10] you end your career, you have all [00:12:11] this experience.

You can come [00:12:12] in at a different [00:12:13] level and have more [00:12:14] sort of seniority." [00:12:15] So [00:12:16] a-and I, I agreed with that. [00:12:17] It's an amazing place. [00:12:18] I don't discount the [00:12:19] organization. I still advise the [00:12:20] UN in, in a lot of [00:12:21] respects, but, [00:12:22] uh, not really [00:12:23] the best place when you're right [00:12:24] out of school. So I [00:12:25] thought, "Okay, well, let's [00:12:26] get some experience, [00:12:27] some, some rungs on the [00:12:28] ladder in [00:12:29] other places."

So [00:12:30] went into the [00:12:31] consulting world. That seemed to [00:12:32] be the best fit, [00:12:33] but was always [00:12:34] working with [00:12:35] sort of the public [00:12:36] sector clients, so [00:12:37] those that were [00:12:38] more [00:12:39] caring [00:12:40] than just, uh, [00:12:41] pure corporate [00:12:42] actors, right? So [00:12:43] that was always kind [00:12:44] of the trajectory. But then I [00:12:45] went on a trip [00:12:46] to, to [00:12:47] Shanghai, just summer [00:12:48] vacation, and [00:12:49] kind of fell in love with the [00:12:50] place, so decided to [00:12:51] move there.

But I [00:12:52] needed to figure [00:12:53] out a way to [00:12:54] take all of that [00:12:55] experience that I had in the, [00:12:56] the public [00:12:57] sector, working with those [00:12:58] companies in the UN, [00:12:59] in a very [00:13:00] commercial city. [00:13:01] So [00:13:02] for anybody who hasn't been to [00:13:03] Shanghai, it [00:13:04] is kind of [00:13:05] capitalism [00:13:06] on steroids. It [00:13:07] is money, money, money, [00:13:08] money, money, money, money. [00:13:09] So I [00:13:10] landed in [00:13:11] sustainability, which for [00:13:12] me is kind of [00:13:13] the [00:13:14] intersection between doing [00:13:15] good and the [00:13:16] corporate world, which is my [00:13:17] sort of area of [00:13:18] sustainability, which again, I'm sure we'll [00:13:19] talk about.[00:13:20]

But I, I [00:13:21] needed to figure out a way [00:13:22] to, to live in [00:13:23] that city and do [00:13:24] the work that I liked [00:13:25] doing. So [00:13:26] for me, [00:13:27] sustainability seemed

What sustainability actually means far beyond hugging the trees 🌳♻📘

John Pabon: the [00:13:28] right fit. [00:13:29] And back when I [00:13:30] started in this field, it [00:13:31] wasn't even called that. [00:13:32] We were calling it things like [00:13:33] CSR [00:13:34] or charity, [00:13:35] so it was very, [00:13:36] very sort of [00:13:37] the, the starting [00:13:38] point of [00:13:39] the [00:13:40] sustainability [00:13:41] practice as a profession, [00:13:42] and very, very [00:13:43] different than what it looks like [00:13:44] today.

Bruce Anthony: [00:13:45] We have [00:13:46] said this word [00:13:47] a [00:13:48] lot, [00:13:49] uh, and I'm [00:13:50] sure some people in [00:13:51] my audience are gonna be [00:13:52] like, "What the hell are they talking [00:13:53] about sustainability?" [00:13:54] Because [00:13:55] [00:13:56] as what happens [00:13:57] with a lot of [00:13:58] words, certain [00:13:59] [00:14:00] villains get [00:14:01] ahold of [00:14:02] certain words and [00:14:03] change the actual [00:14:04] meaning and [00:14:05] understanding around [00:14:06] it. [00:14:07] So [00:14:08] from somebody who has [00:14:09] worked in it [00:14:10] for [00:14:11] years, can [00:14:12] you explain to my [00:14:13] audience [00:14:14] what we're referring to [00:14:15] when we say [00:14:16] sustainability?[00:14:17]

John Pabon: And that is the right [00:14:18] question to ask, and it [00:14:19] doesn't get asked [00:14:20] nearly enough. And it's not [00:14:21] even the villains that [00:14:22] mess with the definition. We [00:14:23] do it internally in the [00:14:24] profession too, [00:14:25] because if I was to [00:14:26] ask five even [00:14:27] sustainability [00:14:28] professionals to define [00:14:29] what that means, I'm gonna [00:14:30] get 100 different answers [00:14:31] because we don't have a [00:14:32] shared definition.

[00:14:33] So for [00:14:34] me, and I think honestly [00:14:35] for probably a good [00:14:36] majority of my [00:14:37] colleagues, [00:14:38] sustainability [00:14:39] is an umbrella [00:14:40] term for [00:14:41] anything that [00:14:42] relates to doing [00:14:43] good for the planet [00:14:44] or for [00:14:45] society. So a [00:14:46] lot of times you hear [00:14:47] sustainability and you [00:14:48] think the green side [00:14:49] of things, so [00:14:50] hugging the trees, [00:14:51] saving the polar bears.

[00:14:52] That's fine. That's [00:14:53] important. It's not the [00:14:54] area I specialize in. [00:14:55] I actually find it [00:14:56] kind of boring, [00:14:57] but that's just one [00:14:58] small area of the [00:14:59] sustainability world. We [00:15:00] also have the entire [00:15:01] social conversation, [00:15:02] so that's [00:15:03] DEI, [00:15:04] inclusion, [00:15:05] uh, animal rights, [00:15:06] labor rights, [00:15:07] human welfare. [00:15:08] That sort of spot [00:15:09] is where I have [00:15:10] spent most of my time [00:15:11] and the part I find [00:15:12] most interesting.

[00:15:13] And then you have the really [00:15:14] boring stuff, which is the [00:15:15] governance stuff. It's [00:15:16] important, but it's [00:15:17] basically how [00:15:18] we monitor [00:15:19] and track and make sure [00:15:20] we're keeping on [00:15:21] track with the goals that we've [00:15:22] set for ourselves. [00:15:23] That's-- includes [00:15:24]

So who is actually checking these companies? Basically no one 🏢🔍⚖

John Pabon: communications and [00:15:25] strategy and all that sort [00:15:26] of thing that [00:15:27] even though [00:15:28] I called it boring, it's sort [00:15:29] of where I sit [00:15:30] currently in, uh, [00:15:31] my evolution as a [00:15:32] professional.

So you [00:15:33] can see just from that, [00:15:34] it includes [00:15:35] basically [00:15:36] everything. So [00:15:37] sustainability, again, an umbrella [00:15:38] term for anything [00:15:39] that does good for the [00:15:40] planet or society.[00:15:41] [00:15:42]

Bruce Anthony: And, and so [00:15:43] if there is, [00:15:44] if you say there [00:15:45] are 100 [00:15:46] different people in your [00:15:47] field that could give [00:15:48] 100 different [00:15:49] answers, [00:15:50] how can [00:15:51] you actually, [00:15:52] besides that [00:15:53] umbrella term that you just [00:15:54] gave me, how can you [00:15:55] actually define it? And, [00:15:56] and, and better [00:15:57] yet, [00:15:58] who [00:15:59] actually [00:16:00] [00:16:01] is the [00:16:02] [00:16:03] con- [00:16:04] mm, what's the right [00:16:05] word for this? [00:16:06] I [00:16:07] hate using this term, [00:16:08] but overseer [00:16:09] [00:16:10] of [00:16:11] making [00:16:12] sure [00:16:13] these [00:16:14] companies [00:16:15] are doing [00:16:16] sustainable things. [00:16:17] For instance, [00:16:18] if you're [00:16:19] working for a [00:16:20] corporation, [00:16:21] who's [00:16:22] checking the [00:16:23] corporation[00:16:24]

John Pabon: [00:16:25] That is our [00:16:26] Achilles heel. [00:16:27] That and comm-- really [00:16:28] bad communication. [00:16:29] So it's the [00:16:30] oversight, and the [00:16:31] reason we haven't [00:16:32] done [00:16:33] more than we have, and, [00:16:34] and I'll [00:16:35] back up one quick s- [00:16:36] one quick sec. A [00:16:37] lot of what we're probably [00:16:38] going to talk about today and [00:16:39] how it's gonna come out of my [00:16:40] mouth may sound [00:16:41] pessimistic, but I'm not a [00:16:42] pessimist.

I'm actually quite [00:16:43] optimistic about [00:16:44] what's [00:16:45] happening, what the future [00:16:46] holds. It doesn't [00:16:47] look that way right now on [00:16:48] paper, I get that. You turn [00:16:49] on, you know, the news [00:16:50] or you, you read social [00:16:51] media and it looks [00:16:52] like we're, we're screwed. [00:16:53] But I, I really [00:16:54] don't honestly in [00:16:55] my heart of hearts believe that. [00:16:56] So [00:16:57] take everything that, [00:16:58] that I'm saying not [00:16:59] necessarily as [00:17:00] pessimistic as it, as it may [00:17:01] come out this morning.

So [00:17:02] there [00:17:03] is no [00:17:04] oversight of [00:17:05] all of this in a way [00:17:06] that would actually [00:17:07] move the needle in the right [00:17:08] direction. It's a [00:17:09] lot of self-governance. [00:17:10] So these [00:17:11] organizations, by and [00:17:12] large, [00:17:13] are [00:17:14] monitoring themselves. [00:17:15] The [00:17:16] only time they're not is [00:17:17] when they do something [00:17:18] really, really [00:17:19] bad that then the [00:17:20] public gets involved or [00:17:21] a regulator gets [00:17:22] involved to [00:17:23] smack them on the wrist, give them a [00:17:24] little bit of a fine [00:17:25] and say, "Hey, [00:17:26] don't do that again," even though [00:17:27] we know they're probably gonna do [00:17:28] that again.

So [00:17:29] a lot of it is [00:17:30] self-governing, which [00:17:31] is something that [00:17:32] people have [00:17:33] tried to change, but it [00:17:34] is very [00:17:35] slow-going, and you can imagine [00:17:36] why. These companies [00:17:37] aren't going to give up their [00:17:38] power in the same [00:17:39] sense lobbyists aren't gonna [00:17:40] give up their power [00:17:41] in, you know, [00:17:42] capital cities around the [00:17:43] world. These companies [00:17:44] and their boardrooms are not [00:17:45] giving up power [00:17:46] easily to [00:17:47] consultants like myself [00:17:48] either.

Bruce Anthony: [00:17:49] What's the incentive for the [00:17:50] companies to [00:17:51] even do it if there [00:17:52] isn't [00:17:53] any real [00:17:54] oversight unless [00:17:55] something catastrophic [00:17:56] happens?[00:17:57]

John Pabon: It's [00:17:58] the-- So it's [00:17:59] for companies to have a 20 [00:18:00] or 30 [00:18:01] year [00:18:02] mindset [00:18:03] and to see really [00:18:04] into the future [00:18:05] because honestly, [00:18:06] if we're thinking, let's [00:18:07] go, I don't have a [00:18:08] crystal ball, but let's just go [00:18:09] 10 years into the [00:18:10] future. And, [00:18:11] and we can already see the [00:18:12] trajectory of this from, [00:18:13] you know, just 10 years in the [00:18:14] past.

[00:18:15] Companies that don't play ball, [00:18:16] companies that [00:18:17] aren't doing [00:18:18] something good for [00:18:19] society or the planet, they're not [00:18:20] really gonna have a place to [00:18:21] play anymore. I mean, [00:18:22] I, I [00:18:23] don't [00:18:24] wanna talk about capitalism [00:18:25] per se because I'm [00:18:26] sure there's some genius [00:18:27] working on a different [00:18:28] system, but it's what we have [00:18:29] for the moment.

One of the [00:18:30] few silver linings [00:18:31] of capitalism [00:18:32] is that companies [00:18:33] respond to the way people spend their [00:18:34] money. [00:18:35] So if [00:18:36] people are increasingly [00:18:37] not spending money at [00:18:38] companies that don't align with [00:18:39] their values, which we [00:18:40] know statistically is [00:18:41] absolutely happening, [00:18:42] then those

Target, the DEI rollbacks and the big problem with utopia today 🎯🚫⚖

John Pabon: companies [00:18:43] are either, A, [00:18:44] going to have to change the [00:18:45] ways they're doing things, [00:18:46] which is how we [00:18:47] push the [00:18:48] sustainability conversation, [00:18:49] or they're [00:18:50] not gonna have a [00:18:51] place anymore and people aren't [00:18:52] gonna buy from them and [00:18:53] they'll go out of business.

[00:18:54] That's [00:18:55] pretty simplistic and [00:18:56] it's, it's extremely [00:18:57] optimistic, but [00:18:58] that ideally [00:18:59] is what we're trying to get [00:19:00] to.[00:19:01]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, I, and, [00:19:02] and, and I hear [00:19:03] everything that you're saying, [00:19:04] and I think in, [00:19:05] in [00:19:06] a [00:19:07] really [00:19:08] [00:19:09] utopian type [00:19:10] of society, [00:19:11] that would [00:19:12] be [00:19:13] correct. [00:19:14] And I know we'll get into [00:19:15] this later, [00:19:16] but let's skip [00:19:17] ahead a little [00:19:18] bit. It [00:19:19] doesn't seem like [00:19:20] Target, for instance, [00:19:21] or [00:19:22] Amazon [00:19:23] is really [00:19:24] hurting for [00:19:25] funds [00:19:26] when they have-- [00:19:27] they were [00:19:28] [00:19:29] DEI [00:19:30] initiatives, and [00:19:31] we'll get into [00:19:32] really specific later[00:19:33]

John Pabon: Target [00:19:34] bugs the hell out of me, [00:19:35] honestly. That's so [00:19:36] sad to see.

Bruce Anthony: [00:19:37] It, but, but [00:19:38] I'm not seeing... [00:19:39] Their, [00:19:40] their [00:19:41] pocketbooks [00:19:42] have been [00:19:43] hurt, [00:19:44] maybe [00:19:45] not to the point where [00:19:46] they would need to [00:19:47] change, but [00:19:48] they decided to [00:19:49] strip away [00:19:50] all DEI [00:19:51] programs sorta kind [00:19:52] of, [00:19:53] and, and there's [00:19:54] been a [00:19:55] backlash from, [00:19:56] uh, people [00:19:57] of color community to [00:19:58] not go to Target, [00:19:59] and they [00:20:00] still haven't [00:20:01] changed.

They haven't [00:20:02] budged. So my [00:20:03] only pushback to that [00:20:04] is, is that, yeah, [00:20:05] normally that would [00:20:06] work, [00:20:07] but it seems like with [00:20:08] certain social [00:20:09] issues, [00:20:10] [00:20:11] companies can just say, "Well, [00:20:12] I don't really give a damn. [00:20:13] We're just gonna wait it out [00:20:14] and see what happens."[00:20:15]

John Pabon: [00:20:16] Yeah, and I, I [00:20:17] agree 100% with [00:20:18] that, and it is that, that [00:20:19] utopian vision. I think [00:20:20] that's a perfect way to frame [00:20:21] that. Uh, [00:20:22] what I want people [00:20:23] listening or watching [00:20:24] to think of when [00:20:25] they think of [00:20:26] anything around s- that [00:20:27] umbrella term of [00:20:28] sustainability is maybe switch our [00:20:29] perceptions a bit [00:20:30] from an idea of [00:20:31] utopia, which I think a [00:20:32] lot of people have [00:20:33] that image, and that's, [00:20:34] honestly, that's [00:20:35] on the fault of, of all [00:20:36] of us in the profession for [00:20:37] pushing that, which is [00:20:38] n-not really [00:20:39] what we should've been pushing.

We [00:20:40] should've been pushing this [00:20:41] idea of, [00:20:42] and people are not [00:20:43] gonna like to hear this, but [00:20:44] it's absolutely true, [00:20:45] incremental [00:20:46] change in the right [00:20:47] direction. [00:20:48] That's slow. [00:20:49] That doesn't get us where we [00:20:50] need to go fast enough. [00:20:51] I get that. [00:20:52] But honestly, [00:20:53] it's probably as good as we're [00:20:54] gonna get in our [00:20:55] lifetimes. And so if [00:20:56] we approach it from that [00:20:57] perspective [00:20:58] instead of [00:20:59] pushing for a utopian [00:21:00] vision, 'cause nothing we do is [00:21:01] utopian.

It's [00:21:02] not nearly as easy as [00:21:03] flipping a switch and [00:21:04] making it happen. I wish it [00:21:05] was. I wish I was out of a [00:21:06] job. But [00:21:07] that's not gonna happen. I have great [00:21:08] job security, [00:21:09] unfortunately. [00:21:10] So, so [00:21:11] moving the needle in the [00:21:12] right direction is what we [00:21:13] should be asking for. From [00:21:14] a, a personal [00:21:15] perspective for [00:21:16] individuals that [00:21:17] see all this [00:21:18] pushing crap uphill [00:21:19] every day and it's not worth [00:21:20] the fight, if you change [00:21:21] your perspective that way, you go, [00:21:22] "Oh, I [00:21:23] can see the positive things [00:21:24] happening and it's not so [00:21:25] bad.

I'll continue to do the [00:21:26] work that I need to do, and [00:21:27] I'll continue to push for [00:21:28] the right things." So it's [00:21:29] about switching that. [00:21:30] For [00:21:31] organizations as well, [00:21:32] companies inside, that's [00:21:33] also the [00:21:34] trajectory. It's not [00:21:35] perfection, [00:21:36] and a lot of companies [00:21:37] are absolutely [00:21:38] egregious in the terrible things [00:21:39] they do. There's not-- [00:21:40] uh, uh, we're not [00:21:41] limited with that.

We can [00:21:42] have a talk about them for [00:21:43] days on end. But [00:21:44] internally, if [00:21:45] they're moving the needle in the right [00:21:46] direction, for me, [00:21:47] that is a [00:21:48] win. Some companies will never [00:21:49] do that. [00:21:50] Some companies, like [00:21:51] some of the ones you [00:21:52] mentioned, are, are going [00:21:53] backwards really, [00:21:54] really fast. And I don't [00:21:55] know, I'm not gonna stand [00:21:56] behind a, a train that's [00:21:57] running backwards.

You know, [00:21:58] it's, it's not on me. They're [00:21:59] gonna, you know, [00:22:00] hopefully dig [00:22:01] their, dig their own [00:22:02] graves. But for [00:22:03] most companies, [00:22:04] not [00:22:05] just in the United States, [00:22:06] although that's where most companies [00:22:07] are based, you have to remember [00:22:08] these are global [00:22:09] organizations. While [00:22:10] Target is a great [00:22:11] example, they may be doing [00:22:12] horrendous [00:22:13] things in the United

Inside the boardroom where the whole facade finally fell apart 🏭👀🎭

John Pabon: States, [00:22:14] their [00:22:15] operations in other parts [00:22:16] of the world [00:22:17] are doing okay [00:22:18] things.

Unfortunately, [00:22:19] what's happening in the US is [00:22:20] getting the lion's share of the [00:22:21] media, rightly [00:22:22] so. But [00:22:23] that's why I say [00:22:24] when, especially Target, it [00:22:25] just aggravates me [00:22:26] because I know they're doing [00:22:27] okay things in other [00:22:28] parts of the world, but [00:22:29] the US is just [00:22:30] screwing things up for the rest of [00:22:31] the organization.[00:22:32]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. I [00:22:33] mean, that kinda happens. [00:22:34] Um, [00:22:35] you're in these [00:22:36] boardrooms, [00:22:37] you [00:22:38] are seeing [00:22:39] what's going [00:22:40] on, [00:22:41] and maybe you [00:22:42] start to see [00:22:43] that [00:22:44] some of [00:22:45] these [00:22:46] [00:22:47] campaigns, whether [00:22:48] it's [00:22:49] green [00:22:50] or whether [00:22:51] it's social [00:22:52] issues, [00:22:53] [00:22:54] starts out doing [00:22:55] good and [00:22:56] then maybe some [00:22:57] situation like [00:22:58] Target, not specifically [00:22:59] Target, but a [00:23:00] situation like Target, [00:23:01] you see, "Oh, [00:23:02] wait a minute, [00:23:03] this was all a [00:23:04] facade."

When [00:23:05] did that moment [00:23:06] kinda happen [00:23:07] to, for you [00:23:08] and, and [00:23:09] what did that [00:23:10] say to you [00:23:11] about what [00:23:12] you were doing [00:23:13] as far [00:23:14] as working with these [00:23:15] companies and the [00:23:16] companies themselves?[00:23:17]

John Pabon: Yeah, and [00:23:18] I mentioned this just [00:23:19] briefly a second [00:23:20] ago. Communications [00:23:21] is sort of our Achilles [00:23:22] heel. We're really bad at it. [00:23:23] We're really bad at talking [00:23:24] about the things we're doing, [00:23:25] and companies [00:23:26] are even worse. They're, [00:23:27] they're, they're not [00:23:28] really-- I don't know why [00:23:29] this is. I don't know why [00:23:30] companies doing the right [00:23:31] thing don't talk about it [00:23:32] more.[00:23:33]

Recently they [00:23:34] have, but I, I, [00:23:35] I think that's [00:23:36] just them trying to make a buck. [00:23:37] But in, in the [00:23:38] past, we're talking ten, 15 [00:23:39] years ago, [00:23:40] companies just wouldn't do [00:23:41] it. And I think it was [00:23:42] probably a combination of, [00:23:43] you know, we're doing this [00:23:44] because we actually care, so [00:23:45] we shouldn't boast [00:23:46] about it, we shouldn't market [00:23:47] it.

And [00:23:48] that wasn't really [00:23:49] great because we [00:23:50] needed those companies to [00:23:51] talk about that to [00:23:52] encourage others to do the [00:23:53] same thing. That's [00:23:54] not what [00:23:55] transpired. Now companies [00:23:56] are, are latching [00:23:57] onto marketing as a way just [00:23:58] to make a quick buck. [00:23:59] And when we talk [00:24:00] about greenwashing, [00:24:01] which is essentially [00:24:02] when a, a [00:24:03] company mostly, but [00:24:04] also [00:24:05] individuals and governments will [00:24:06] wrap themselves in [00:24:07] this language of [00:24:08] sustainability when the [00:24:09] truth isn't as [00:24:10] sustainable.

It's been going [00:24:11] on for a very, [00:24:12] very long time. [00:24:13] [00:24:14] Companies are now starting to, [00:24:15] to really latch [00:24:16] on to that as [00:24:17] a way to [00:24:18] make more money [00:24:19] and pretend like they're doing [00:24:20] good for society [00:24:21] or the planet. [00:24:22] My kind of [00:24:23] aha moment [00:24:24] was really [00:24:25] when I was working [00:24:26] in, in China, and I [00:24:27] spent a lot of time in [00:24:28] and out of factories, [00:24:29] more time than I [00:24:30] care to remember.[00:24:31]

And I, I saw [00:24:32] the things happening [00:24:33] behind the scenes in [00:24:34] places that a [00:24:35] lot of people would [00:24:36] never in their entire [00:24:37] lives visit or [00:24:38] even know about. And I thought, [00:24:39] "Why aren't [00:24:40] people talking about [00:24:41] this more? Why don't more people [00:24:42] know about this?" So [00:24:43] I, I was [00:24:44] approaching this kind of from [00:24:45] maybe [00:24:46] the reverse [00:24:47] of what you, what you sort [00:24:48] of asked.

I saw the good [00:24:49] things happening and why [00:24:50] it wasn't communicated, [00:24:51] which then led me [00:24:52] to think [00:24:53] about the [00:24:54] opposite of, okay, well, if there's [00:24:55] good things happening not being [00:24:56] communicated, then there's probably [00:24:57] bad things happening [00:24:58] as well that [00:24:59] are being [00:25:00] communicated. So then I took sort of [00:25:01] this [00:25:02] more [00:25:03] pessimistic lens of [00:25:04] everything and realized, oh my [00:25:05] gosh, as you start to peel [00:25:06] back the layers of the onion, [00:25:07] yeah, it's, [00:25:08] it's really bad out [00:25:09] there.

So the [00:25:10] companies doing [00:25:11] the not great things [00:25:12] and not using marketing [00:25:13] the right way [00:25:14] far outweigh the [00:25:15] companies that are doing the [00:25:16] right thing. So [00:25:17] my perspective on [00:25:18] everything related [00:25:19] to sustainability [00:25:20] communications really [00:25:21] is getting the [00:25:22] companies doing the right thing [00:25:23] to talk more about it [00:25:24] as a way [00:25:25] to counter the [00:25:26] companies doing the

John Pabon: [00:25:27] wrong thing.

The [00:25:28] companies that are greenwashing, [00:25:29] they're investing [00:25:30] so much money [00:25:31] and effort [00:25:32] into doing these more [00:25:33] sophisticated [00:25:34] lies that it is really hard [00:25:35] to push back against [00:25:36] them. So I figured, [00:25:37] okay, let's promote the [00:25:38] ones doing the right thing [00:25:39] first. That seems like an [00:25:40] easier way [00:25:41] in.​

Bruce Anthony: [00:25:42] [00:25:43] [00:25:44] [00:25:45] [00:25:46] [00:25:47] [00:25:48] [00:25:49] You've [00:25:50] kind of, you kind of [00:25:51] given a [00:25:52] definition, but I'm gonna ask you to, [00:25:53] to [00:25:54] simplify it just a little [00:25:55] bit more on [00:25:56] what exactly [00:25:57] is greenwashing. [00:25:58] And in your book, [00:25:59] you [00:26:00] divide it into three [00:26:01] tiers with [00:26:02] companies, [00:26:03] governments, and, [00:26:04] and [00:26:05] individuals [00:26:06] backslash [00:26:07] influencers. Can you [00:26:08] give me an [00:26:09] example of [00:26:10] each using [00:26:11] greenwashing?[00:26:12]

John Pabon: Absolutely. So [00:26:13] just absolutely [00:26:14] simplified, greenwashing [00:26:15] is any time [00:26:16] somebody [00:26:17] or a company [00:26:18] lies to you about their [00:26:19] sustainability [00:26:20] credentials. That's it. [00:26:21] There's [00:26:22] different types of it, [00:26:23] right? So there's the [00:26:24] really bad stuff, [00:26:25] and we tend to see that [00:26:26] from the highly polluting [00:26:27] industries like the [00:26:28] fossil fuel and [00:26:29] extractive industries.[00:26:30]

The defense [00:26:31] industry tends to [00:26:32] use greenwashing, which is [00:26:33] weird because they [00:26:34] kill people, so you [00:26:35] can't be sustainable. That's [00:26:36] not how it works. Uh, [00:26:37] tobacco does the [00:26:38] same thing. They like to [00:26:39] pretend they're green when [00:26:40] they kill their [00:26:41] customers. So for [00:26:42] anybody wondering what I'm [00:26:43] talking about, uh, [00:26:44] human rights [00:26:45] and not [00:26:46] doing harm is sort of the [00:26:47] basis for everything [00:26:48] related to

Greenwashing finally defined and its three very sneaky tiers 🏢🏛📢

John Pabon: sustainability.

[00:26:49] If you [00:26:50] kill your consumers, you [00:26:51] fail right out of the gate. [00:26:52] So that, [00:26:53] that is what [00:26:54] greenwashing essentially [00:26:55] is. And the other [00:26:56] end of the spectrum, [00:26:57] sometimes it's accidental. [00:26:58] A company may [00:26:59] be [00:27:00] starting their [00:27:01] sustainability journey, and they say the [00:27:02] wrong thing, [00:27:03] or the [00:27:04] regulator changed a [00:27:05] requirement, and they messed [00:27:06] up.

We can fix those. [00:27:07] That's fine. It's, it's [00:27:08] the more [00:27:09] egregious kind of [00:27:10] outright [00:27:11] lies that I am, [00:27:12] I'm really concerned [00:27:13] about. So you're right. [00:27:14] There are different groups. Now, [00:27:15] when I started the book, [00:27:16] I was just gonna for- [00:27:17] focus on corporates. I [00:27:18] thought that's enough to [00:27:19] create a book out of. [00:27:20] Great. Be done. [00:27:21] Then I [00:27:22] started researching, and the [00:27:23] book kind of got bigger [00:27:24] and bigger and bigger [00:27:25] because I realized, okay, it's [00:27:26] not just companies [00:27:27] doing it.

[00:27:28] Governments do it. They love to [00:27:29] do it. They love to sign these [00:27:30] pledges that they know [00:27:31] they're never gonna be, uh, [00:27:32] you know, accountable [00:27:33] to. Then, of [00:27:34] course, there's celebrities [00:27:35] love to do it. They give [00:27:36] just a little bit to their [00:27:37] favorite cause, and then they [00:27:38] go off into their private [00:27:39] jets. Uh, [00:27:40] influencers are [00:27:41] starting to do it as [00:27:42] well, [00:27:43] international organizations, [00:27:44] all these sorts of groups [00:27:45] love to [00:27:46] pretend they're [00:27:47] sustainable and good for the [00:27:48] planet and society [00:27:49] when the reality is, [00:27:50] is not nearly [00:27:51] that case.[00:27:52]

The corporate [00:27:53] world, we have [00:27:54] decades and decades and decades [00:27:55] of examples. I [00:27:56] think the one that might [00:27:57] surprise people the [00:27:58] most is actually the [00:27:59] first example of [00:28:00] greenwashing that [00:28:01] we have kind of [00:28:02] in modern history, [00:28:03] and it's something we all [00:28:04] know really, [00:28:05] really well. Anytime you go to a [00:28:06] hotel and you [00:28:07] go to the bathroom, [00:28:08] what do you [00:28:09] see?

There's usually a little [00:28:10] plastic placard there [00:28:11] that says to hang up your [00:28:12] towel

Bruce Anthony: [00:28:13] Mm-hmm.

John Pabon: That's [00:28:14] greenwashing. [00:28:15] Because hotels [00:28:16] didn't start that [00:28:17] back in the '50s and [00:28:18] '60s because they cared [00:28:19] so much about the [00:28:20] planet, which is [00:28:21] essentially what the, the [00:28:22] placard says. They did it [00:28:23] because water's really [00:28:24] expensive, and they do a lot of [00:28:25] laundry.

[00:28:26] So they were looking for a [00:28:27] way to save on [00:28:28] water. And [00:28:29] now, you know, it's [00:28:30] great. Yeah, hang up your [00:28:31] towels. Absolutely. [00:28:32] You know, do, you say, [00:28:33] do, do your bit, but [00:28:34] don't do it [00:28:35] thinking you're doing a good [00:28:36] thing for the planet. You're [00:28:37] helping the, the bottom [00:28:38] line of that [00:28:39] hotel. That's honestly what's, [00:28:40] what's going on.

So that's [00:28:41] a really simple [00:28:42] example that people may [00:28:43] not [00:28:44] realize. When it [00:28:45] comes to [00:28:46] countries and [00:28:47] international organizations, [00:28:48] we see this a lot as well, [00:28:49] particularly now with [00:28:50] lots of companies [00:28:51] signing these [00:28:52] net zero by [00:28:53] [00:28:54] 2040, 2050 pledges [00:28:55] that [00:28:56] honestly most [00:28:57] politicians in [00:28:58] the democratic world are [00:28:59] not gonna be on the hook [00:29:00] for because they'll be out of power [00:29:01] in a few years.

[00:29:02] So they're signing [00:29:03] checks that they know they're [00:29:04] not gonna have to cash. [00:29:05] [00:29:06] Celebrities, [00:29:07] influencers, the ultra, [00:29:08] the ultra-wealthy. [00:29:09] Um, my [00:29:10] next book is, [00:29:11] and it'll be out next year, called [00:29:12] "Eat the Rich." It's all [00:29:13] about the ultra-wealthy. [00:29:14] Uh, it's a, a [00:29:15] small chapter in [00:29:16] "The Great Greenwashing" [00:29:17] that I thought, "Okay, I need to give [00:29:18] more time to this," [00:29:19] so I, I made a whole book [00:29:20] about it.

But [00:29:21] my [00:29:22] least [00:29:23] favorite favorite factoid [00:29:24] about the

Is Facebook greenwashing us all when the community turns toxic 📱⚠👥

John Pabon: [00:29:25] ultra-wealthy is that the [00:29:26] top 50 richest [00:29:27] people in the world will [00:29:28] emit more carbon [00:29:29] in 90 minutes [00:29:30] than the average [00:29:31] person does in an [00:29:32] entire lifetime.[00:29:33]

Bruce Anthony: Wow[00:29:34]

John Pabon: But yet they tell [00:29:35] us [00:29:36] to make sure we're using paper [00:29:37] straws. [00:29:38] So all [00:29:39] of that is, are [00:29:40] different forms of greenwashing, [00:29:41] and we can go on for days [00:29:42] with the different examples, [00:29:43] but I'm [00:29:44] sure anybody [00:29:45] listening and watching [00:29:46] will, uh, get fed [00:29:47] up really, really [00:29:48] quickly and start banging their head [00:29:49] against a wall if we do that.[00:29:50]

Bruce Anthony: I, [00:29:51] I am curious, [00:29:52] is this a form of [00:29:53] greenwashing [00:29:54] now that you bring [00:29:55] that up? [00:29:56] Social media, [00:29:57] let's say [00:29:58] Facebook, 'cause he had to [00:29:59] just sign... [00:30:00] Zuckerberg had to just sign a [00:30:01] big, uh, [00:30:02] a big check [00:30:03] to, [00:30:04] uh, basically [00:30:05] say I'm sorry. [00:30:06] Whether or [00:30:07] not you th- you [00:30:08] believe he is, uh, [00:30:09] the real-life version of [00:30:10] Lex Luthor, [00:30:11] he [00:30:12] seemed like in the [00:30:13] beginning what he [00:30:14] wanted to do [00:30:15] was create [00:30:16] [00:30:17] community [00:30:18] through [00:30:19] technology, [00:30:20] right?

That [00:30:21] that seemed [00:30:22] like a good [00:30:23] cause, but [00:30:24] later on [00:30:25] money got [00:30:26] involved, ads [00:30:27] and [00:30:28] algorithms, and [00:30:29] then an [00:30:30] addiction crisis [00:30:31] happened [00:30:32] because of it. [00:30:33] Is that a [00:30:34] form of [00:30:35] greenwashing where you're [00:30:36] starting out [00:30:37] to [00:30:38] essentially help [00:30:39] people, but [00:30:40] then the thing that [00:30:41] you've created [00:30:42] is [00:30:43] actually hurting [00:30:44] them, but [00:30:45] you still try to [00:30:46] say, "Well, [00:30:47] is it really?"[00:30:48]

John Pabon: [00:30:49] I would [00:30:50] classify it as [00:30:51] that. I, I think most [00:30:52] people m- [00:30:53] probably would not, and [00:30:54] the reason is it's [00:30:55] not technically [00:30:56] greenwashing until there's a [00:30:57] lie involved. [00:30:58] So if-- [00:30:59] Well, actually, no, [00:31:00] scratch that, because Facebook [00:31:01] still does [00:31:02] push this idea that they're [00:31:03] community led. [00:31:04] So yeah, it's greenwashing. [00:31:05] Let's say that.

I, I, [00:31:06] I absolutely think so. [00:31:07] The, [00:31:08] the trajectory of [00:31:09] where Zuckerberg and the [00:31:10] corporation, like you said, [00:31:11] from, from Harvard to [00:31:12] today is very different. I [00:31:13] remember [00:31:14] when The [00:31:15] Facebook [00:31:16] started. I remember at my [00:31:17] university when [00:31:18] we got the, you know, we [00:31:19] were part of the, the, [00:31:20] the group [00:31:21] that got it this [00:31:22] particular week or month or [00:31:23] whatever it was.

Because for [00:31:24] anybody who's, who's too [00:31:25] young, not [00:31:26] everybody could access [00:31:27] Facebook at the beginning. It went [00:31:28] to your [00:31:29] university first. You had... [00:31:30] Yep.

Bruce Anthony: college [00:31:31] email.

John Pabon: And it got [00:31:32] rolled out, and there was a lot of [00:31:33] hype around it, and I [00:31:34] remember when it happened, and it [00:31:35] was great at the [00:31:36] beginning, and then [00:31:37] it became what [00:31:38] it unfortunately [00:31:39] is today, which, [00:31:40] uh, yeah, Lex [00:31:41] Luther is being nice.[00:31:42] [00:31:43]

Bruce Anthony: [00:31:44] Um, [00:31:45] [00:31:46] [00:31:47] greenwashing is not [00:31:48] just

The black squares back in 2020 and the total silence by 2024 ✊🟦🤐

Bruce Anthony: relegated [00:31:49] to, [00:31:50] [00:31:51] um, the [00:31:52] sustainability. Well, [00:31:53] you, you put [00:31:54] sustainability as a [00:31:55] big umbrella [00:31:56] of helping all, [00:31:57] but most [00:31:58] people, even with [00:31:59] that definition, [00:32:00] they're still gonna [00:32:01] harken back to [00:32:02] what they think [00:32:03] sustainability is, which [00:32:04] is their environment. [00:32:05] But [00:32:06] you [00:32:07] make the case [00:32:08] that [00:32:09] this [00:32:10] same practice [00:32:11] is being [00:32:12] used [00:32:13] when we talking [00:32:14] about the social issues.

[00:32:15] We touched on [00:32:16] Target earlier, [00:32:17] but I [00:32:18] remember [00:32:19] 2020. [00:32:20] The world is [00:32:21] shut down. [00:32:22] Everybody's [00:32:23] posting those black [00:32:24] squares, everybody, [00:32:25] 'cause of George [00:32:26] Floyd, right? [00:32:27] Everybody. [00:32:28] There's a Black... [00:32:29] I'm right here [00:32:30] in Washington, [00:32:31] DC going right [00:32:32] down to Black Lives [00:32:33] Matter Plaza, riding [00:32:34] my bike down there [00:32:35] almost every day.

[00:32:36] People are out there. It was [00:32:37] a continuous [00:32:38] celebration [00:32:39] of [00:32:40] Black [00:32:41] Lives Matter. [00:32:42] And [00:32:43] then [00:32:44] 2024 [00:32:45] happens, and [00:32:46] there's this whole [00:32:47] shift, and all those [00:32:48] companies, or a lot [00:32:49] of those companies [00:32:50] that posted that [00:32:51] black square [00:32:52] disappear. Target wasn't the [00:32:53] only one. [00:32:54] [00:32:55] Did [00:32:56] you see [00:32:57] that [00:32:58] coming ahead [00:32:59] of time [00:33:00] because you were [00:33:01] working in the [00:33:02] field and had [00:33:03] seen stuff like [00:33:04] that, [00:33:05] [00:33:06] specifically speaking to [00:33:07] social issues that were [00:33:08] much smaller, [00:33:09] that wasn't [00:33:10] universally [00:33:11] looked at?

That was [00:33:12] this little [00:33:13] campaign, [00:33:14] and you're like, "Yep, [00:33:15] nope, I saw [00:33:16] that [00:33:17] [00:33:18] coming."

John Pabon: What's interesting with [00:33:19] Black Lives Matter is I [00:33:20] didn't see that [00:33:21] coming because the, [00:33:22] the [00:33:23] w- I don't wanna [00:33:24] use the word wave. [00:33:25] That's not the right word. I think [00:33:26] that discounts the [00:33:27] importance of it. But [00:33:28] w- but it, it [00:33:29] was a wave, and I, I [00:33:30] didn't think [00:33:31] the [00:33:32] boomerang effect [00:33:33] would be as hard. [00:33:34] But [00:33:35] with other social [00:33:36] campaigns, we see it all [00:33:37] the time, whether that's [00:33:38] women's rights, [00:33:39] and companies love to [00:33:40] talk about how much they care for [00:33:41] women when it's [00:33:42] International Women's Day, [00:33:43] and then they [00:33:44] forget about women the other [00:33:45] three 64 days of [00:33:46] the year.

Uh, [00:33:47] LGBTQ [00:33:48] rights, where a [00:33:49] company will put up a [00:33:50] pride flag [00:33:51] during June because it's Gay [00:33:52] Rights Month [00:33:53] and then take it down [00:33:54] the next month, [00:33:55] right? So we, we see [00:33:56] it quite a [00:33:57] bit. Now, with [00:33:58] Black Lives Matter, it was [00:33:59] very [00:34:00] interesting that [00:34:01] it wasn't [00:34:02] just a United [00:34:03] States thing. I was here in [00:34:04] Australia while everything [00:34:05] was going on in 2000, [00:34:06] and it was just as prevalent [00:34:07] here.

The, the [00:34:08] social issues [00:34:09] around, uh, indigenous [00:34:10] communities here have a [00:34:11] lot of [00:34:12] similarities and, and [00:34:13] parallels to what happens [00:34:14] and what's going on in the [00:34:15] US. So [00:34:16] that made sense here, [00:34:17] but other parts of the world [00:34:18] as [00:34:19] well. [00:34:20] Companies that [00:34:21] sort of jumped [00:34:22] on, we're gonna call that [00:34:23] a bandwagon [00:34:24] because they weren't [00:34:25] genuine with what they [00:34:26] were doing, [00:34:27] were obviously the first [00:34:28] to kind of get [00:34:29] rid of, of [00:34:30] anything they were doing.

And [00:34:31] an interesting [00:34:32] example from the time [00:34:33] was a, a Pepsi [00:34:34] commercial. So [00:34:35] Kylie [00:34:36] Jenner had a [00:34:37] commercial that [00:34:38] most people probably didn't [00:34:39] see because it [00:34:40] was pulled within 24 [00:34:41] hours because people [00:34:42] were so angry [00:34:43] about just how [00:34:44] flippant she was towards [00:34:45] Black Lives Matter. She [00:34:46] had a, [00:34:47] a, a, a can of, of [00:34:48] Pepsi [00:34:49] and went to [00:34:50] a police [00:34:51] officer.

There was sort of this protest [00:34:52] on the street, the lines of [00:34:53] police officers and the lines of [00:34:54] protesters that we were [00:34:55] s- seeing at the [00:34:56] time, you [00:34:57] know, and people were [00:34:58] getting the crap beat out of [00:34:59] them for this. And she [00:35:00] hands a

American Eagle, Sydney Sweeney and the rise of the bluewashing 🦅🩵🚩

John Pabon: [00:35:01] Pepsi to the cop, and she [00:35:02] solves systemic police [00:35:03] brutality and, [00:35:04] and [00:35:05] centuries of [00:35:06] injustice in the United States [00:35:07] just by doing that.

And people were [00:35:08] like, "Mm-mm. [00:35:09] Mm-mm-mm. Take it down." [00:35:10] And so it was [00:35:11] taken down. [00:35:12] And that's the sort [00:35:13] of thing we [00:35:14] tend to see quite a [00:35:15] bit is a, a [00:35:16] missed [00:35:17] advert or a, a [00:35:18] [00:35:19] misplaced press [00:35:20] conference about things [00:35:21] that people then [00:35:22] jump on and say, "Hey, are [00:35:23] you really genuine about [00:35:24] this? Or, [00:35:25] you know, is there something else [00:35:26] going on behind the [00:35:27] scenes?"

Now, [00:35:28] as I say that, I'm not [00:35:29] encouraging whataboutism, [00:35:30] right? Because [00:35:31] that happens a lot as [00:35:32] well. A company will talk about [00:35:33] a good thing that they're [00:35:34] doing, and people go, "Eh, [00:35:35] what about this?" I'm [00:35:36] not saying that, but [00:35:37] in some [00:35:38] situations, absolutely you need to [00:35:39] call these companies [00:35:40] out. A, a very [00:35:41] recent example [00:35:42] of this i- was the [00:35:43] American Eagle [00:35:44] controversy with [00:35:45] Sydney Sweeney, where [00:35:46] she had [00:35:47] her, her ad [00:35:48] with the...

I mean, [00:35:49] it was a eugenic [00:35:50] dog whistle. Like, [00:35:51] let's be honest, the whole thing [00:35:52] was an absolute racist [00:35:53] dog whistle. But [00:35:54] American Eagle got up [00:35:55] and said, "Oh, no, that's not what [00:35:56] we meant." [00:35:57] And at the [00:35:58] same time as that's [00:35:59] happening, you look at their [00:36:00] background and some [00:36:01] of the causes they [00:36:02] say they support, and a [00:36:03] lot of it is [00:36:04] around [00:36:05] equality for [00:36:06] young girls, [00:36:07] about, uh, you [00:36:08] know, eating disabil- [00:36:09] uh, [00:36:10] disorders and, and [00:36:11] disabilities.

So [00:36:12] something's not matching [00:36:13] up with what's [00:36:14] happening on screen with their [00:36:15] adverts [00:36:16] and what they're saying they [00:36:17] support [00:36:18] behind the scenes. [00:36:19] Not to add [00:36:20] another phrase or a [00:36:21] term to confuse people, [00:36:22] but we call that [00:36:23] blue washing. [00:36:24] So it's [00:36:25] a, a subset [00:36:26] of green-- There's lots of [00:36:27] different washings. It's a [00:36:28] subset of greenwashing that [00:36:29] looks totally at [00:36:30] social issues.

[00:36:31] So it's when [00:36:32] a, a company [00:36:33] essentially says they [00:36:34] support a social issue [00:36:35] when you know [00:36:36] they don't[00:36:37]

Bruce Anthony: [00:36:38] Could it be [00:36:39] both things are [00:36:40] true? Could they, [00:36:41] could they be [00:36:42] supportive [00:36:43] of women, [00:36:44] all [00:36:45] women, [00:36:46] and [00:36:47] eating disorders and all of [00:36:48] that, [00:36:49] and [00:36:50] just be ignorant [00:36:51] to, [00:36:52] "Oh, [00:36:53] we didn't [00:36:54] recognize this [00:36:55] commercial would be [00:36:56] offensive"? [00:36:57] I, I say that [00:36:58] as...

John Pabon: [00:36:59] easy.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. [00:37:00] I say that

John Pabon: [00:37:01] think it is[00:37:02]

Bruce Anthony: uh, uh, [00:37:03] well, I say that [00:37:04] as, uh, I, I [00:37:05] literally had this [00:37:06] conversation [00:37:07] earlier [00:37:08] with an [00:37:09] individual, [00:37:10] and we were ar- [00:37:11] d- [00:37:12] debating an, an, [00:37:13] an interesting [00:37:14] debate about a [00:37:15] particular song and if it was [00:37:16] racist or not, and [00:37:17] this person was White [00:37:18] and I'm of course [00:37:19] Black.

[00:37:20] And I said, "Uh, how [00:37:21] can you [00:37:22] [00:37:23] actually [00:37:24] be the [00:37:25] decider of [00:37:26] what something [00:37:27] is when [00:37:28] you are not [00:37:29] tied to [00:37:30] that particular [00:37:31] thing at all? [00:37:32] You're not Black. You [00:37:33] can't tell me what [00:37:34] is and isn't racist." [00:37:35] And I had a [00:37:36] woman tell [00:37:37] me one time, which it [00:37:38] says misogynist. [00:37:39] When I was [00:37:40] young, I would push [00:37:41] back and say, "Well, [00:37:42] no, it wasn't."

As [00:37:43] I got older, I said, [00:37:44] "Okay, I [00:37:45] didn't mean it that [00:37:46] way. Let me [00:37:47] understand [00:37:48] what it was that I [00:37:49] did or said." [00:37:50] So are there [00:37:51] examples of [00:37:52] companies [00:37:53] like what [00:37:54] Pepsi did, like [00:37:55] what, uh, [00:37:56] American Eagle did, [00:37:57] where they [00:37:58] release an [00:37:59] advertisement, it [00:38:00] upsets a [00:38:01] segment of the [00:38:02] population and they say, "Oh, [00:38:03] wait a minute. [00:38:04] We had no [00:38:05] idea," and then [00:38:06] actually [00:38:07] try to [00:38:08] make amends to that [00:38:09] community[00:38:10]

John Pabon: So [00:38:11] the, [00:38:12] the underlying [00:38:13] foundation, I think with all [00:38:14] of these examples [00:38:15] is the ones you [00:38:16] gave and then [00:38:17] the American Eagle and [00:38:18] Pepsi is, uh, [00:38:19] lived [00:38:20] experience, right? [00:38:21] So, so a lot of [00:38:22] people will [00:38:23] absolutely and probably [00:38:24] rightly take offense when, [00:38:25] for [00:38:26] example, I have a lived [00:38:27] experience in a [00:38:28] particular thing. You [00:38:29] may not have that same [00:38:30] lived experience, but you [00:38:31] want to tell me what my lived [00:38:32] experience is, [00:38:33] right?

We see this happen all the [00:38:34] time, and that's what leads to a [00:38:35] lot of, of arguments [00:38:36] or heated [00:38:37] debates. I think the [00:38:38] difference when it comes to [00:38:39] corporations, [00:38:40] even though it does relate to [00:38:41] lived experience, [00:38:42] is, and I'm gonna paint it [00:38:43] with a very broad [00:38:44] stroke here, [00:38:45] you get these [00:38:46] boardrooms of pale [00:38:47] male stale [00:38:48] people who ha- are so out [00:38:49] of touch with [00:38:50] society, right?

[00:38:51] And if you [00:38:52] look at the American Eagle [00:38:53] ad or the Pepsi ad, this [00:38:54] went through many, many, [00:38:55] many, many, many [00:38:56] layers of [00:38:57] approvals, [00:38:58] most [00:38:59] likely [00:39:00] 90% of the time by [00:39:01] people who didn't have the [00:39:02] lived experience to [00:39:03] realize, "Oh, [00:39:04] that might be [00:39:05] offensive." [00:39:06] And [00:39:07] so, yeah, [00:39:08] there's opportunity [00:39:09] for a, a [00:39:10] come to Jesus moment [00:39:11] and a, "Okay, I [00:39:12] didn't realize that."[00:39:13]

Are these high paid [00:39:14] executives in the

The real payoff hiding behind every single lie is the money 💵🎯📉

John Pabon: corner [00:39:15] suite [00:39:16] caring enough [00:39:17] to do that? [00:39:18] Probably [00:39:19] not, right? So [00:39:20] it's not a genuine, [00:39:21] "Okay, I didn't understand [00:39:22] that that could be wrong." It's [00:39:23] just, "Okay, [00:39:24] yeah, I don't have that lived [00:39:25] experience. I [00:39:26] don't [00:39:27] see how that was [00:39:28] wrong." [00:39:29] And so there is [00:39:30] no, no [00:39:31] moment there where [00:39:32] they might have a bit of [00:39:33] introspection and say, [00:39:34] "Hey, I [00:39:35] probably should have [00:39:36] thought more about this."

No, they're [00:39:37] just onto the next [00:39:38] campaign, which [00:39:39] is the unfortunate [00:39:40] reality.

Bruce Anthony: [00:39:41] And what is the [00:39:42] benefit of all this greenwashing and [00:39:43] [00:39:44] bluewashing, [00:39:45] right? Like, what, [00:39:46] what's the bottom line? [00:39:47] Why [00:39:48] deceive the people? I [00:39:49] know what you're gonna say, [00:39:50] but I, I, I need you to [00:39:51] give that a- [00:39:52] answer to my [00:39:53] audience [00:39:54] because they might be [00:39:55] thinking, "Well, I don't even see what [00:39:56] the big deal is." [00:39:57] And what, what is it [00:39:58] that these companies, [00:39:59] the, the [00:40:00] government, these influencers [00:40:01] get from the [00:40:02] green- and [00:40:03] bluewashing?

John Pabon: [00:40:04] Cue any number [00:40:05] of songs involving [00:40:06] money. It's all about [00:40:07] money at the end of the day, [00:40:08] right? So it, it [00:40:09] absolutely comes back to [00:40:10] that. And what we [00:40:11] talked about the very [00:40:12] beginning of [00:40:13] companies [00:40:14] not having that [00:40:15] long-term [00:40:16] vision, not [00:40:17] realizing that the things they're [00:40:18] doing today to [00:40:19] lie to people are gonna come [00:40:20] back and bite them in the butt [00:40:21] in the not too [00:40:22] distant future.

Companies [00:40:23] still don't realize [00:40:24] this because we are very [00:40:25] squarely, [00:40:26] as you mentioned with the [00:40:27] Prime example, [00:40:28] in, in a [00:40:29] moment where [00:40:30] people aren't doing enough to [00:40:31] push back against these [00:40:32] companies. They sort of feel [00:40:33] despondent. They don't [00:40:34] think that anything [00:40:35] they do is going to [00:40:36] change things, so [00:40:37] why even bother?

I [00:40:38] get that. I get that. There [00:40:39] was a recent study that [00:40:40] found 56% of [00:40:41] young people, [00:40:42] Gen Z and younger, [00:40:43] believe humanity is [00:40:44] doomed. [00:40:45] So [00:40:46] if, if more than [00:40:47] half the next generation have [00:40:48] given up before they've [00:40:49] started, what are you supposed to do with [00:40:50] that, right? So I, I [00:40:51] get it. I absolutely [00:40:52] get it, and that's kind of where [00:40:53] we are now.

So companies are [00:40:54] just raking in this [00:40:55] money while they [00:40:56] can. The [00:40:57] smart ones either [00:40:58] have that long-term [00:40:59] vision and are trying [00:41:00] to change their [00:41:01] ways or make a difference [00:41:02] or get back [00:41:03] to how they started. A [00:41:04] lot of companies started, [00:41:05] like you mentioned with [00:41:06] Facebook, with this [00:41:07] community [00:41:08] social-oriented [00:41:09] mindset, so they're trying to get [00:41:10] back to that.

Again, a [00:41:11] slow process, but [00:41:12] that's happening in, [00:41:13] in drips and drabs. [00:41:14] But for [00:41:15] most companies, they see-- [00:41:16] they kinda see the writing on [00:41:17] the wall. They know [00:41:18] their days are [00:41:19] numbered in some [00:41:20] respects, so why [00:41:21] not just burn everything [00:41:22] down? It's very [00:41:23] nihilistic. Why not just burn it all [00:41:24] down and get as much [00:41:25] money as I [00:41:26] can while it's [00:41:27] happening?

Which is... [00:41:28] [00:41:29] See, uh, what I said about being [00:41:30] [00:41:31] pessimistic?

Bruce Anthony: Yeah,

John Pabon: That's, [00:41:32] that's-- I don't think it [00:41:33] gets more pessimistic than [00:41:34] that statement I just said

The people least responsible are the ones who pay the price 🌊🏚⚖

John Pabon: there, [00:41:35] but I didn't mean it that way.[00:41:36] [00:41:37]

Bruce Anthony: Well, [00:41:38] Ultron [00:41:39] and, and, uh, [00:41:40] Vision said they're [00:41:41] doomed. Yes, [00:41:42] they are, but there's a [00:41:43] beauty in that 'cause they're [00:41:44] living. Yeah, we are [00:41:45] eventually doomed, [00:41:46] but [00:41:47] there is a beauty in the [00:41:48] living. But [00:41:49] with that [00:41:50] being said, [00:41:51] companies are [00:41:52] raking in the money [00:41:53] using this [00:41:54] greenwashing and bluewashing [00:41:55] [00:41:56] [00:41:57] How are [00:41:58] communities being hurt by [00:41:59] this?[00:42:00]

John Pabon: [00:42:01] It's the commun- [00:42:02] it's the [00:42:03] communities that [00:42:04] have the [00:42:05] least [00:42:06] effect that [00:42:07] are the ones that are being [00:42:08] impacted the [00:42:09] most. Nepal [00:42:10] is a great example. [00:42:11] So we just saw the floods in [00:42:12] Nepal and, uh, you [00:42:13] know, th- that [00:42:14] is directly cl- [00:42:15] tied to climate change, even [00:42:16] though nobody in the media [00:42:17] is saying this, and that [00:42:18] drives me up the wall.[00:42:19]

It's directly to [00:42:20] climate change. Now, who [00:42:21] caused that climate [00:42:22] change in the Himalayas? [00:42:23] Well, again, those [00:42:24] people in their private [00:42:25] jets who are [00:42:26] not going to be [00:42:27] impacted. It's [00:42:28] always the [00:42:29] communities that are [00:42:30] marginalized, communities of [00:42:31] color, communities in the [00:42:32] developing world that are [00:42:33] the ones that are bearing the [00:42:34] brunt of this.

[00:42:35] And I, I get [00:42:36] asked this quite a [00:42:37] bit if I'm at a [00:42:38] conference or, or speaking to [00:42:39] sustainability folks: What's the [00:42:40] biggest difference [00:42:41] between [00:42:42] sustainability in [00:42:43] the, the Global [00:42:44] North or the West [00:42:45] and [00:42:46] the developing world? W- [00:42:47] Again, I've [00:42:48] spent the majority of my [00:42:49] time in the developing [00:42:50] world, and what I tell [00:42:51] them is that in, [00:42:52] in the West, we can have [00:42:53] an academic [00:42:54] conversation about this.

We're [00:42:55] sitting in our [00:42:56] boardrooms, we're sitting in, [00:42:57] you know, high-rise [00:42:58] conference facilities. [00:42:59] It's an academic [00:43:00] conversation. It's [00:43:01] those people over there. [00:43:02] It's not me. [00:43:03] In the [00:43:04] developing world, it's [00:43:05] roll up your sleeves, [00:43:06] get dirty, and do the work. I, [00:43:07] I said I was in and out of [00:43:08] more factories than I care to [00:43:09] remember.

I, I lived on [00:43:10] a palm oil [00:43:11] plantation in Borneo for a [00:43:12] while. You know, I, I've been [00:43:13] to all these... And that's [00:43:14] not to pat my own back. [00:43:15] It's, it's to show [00:43:16] there's a, a big [00:43:17] difference in [00:43:18] the outlook and [00:43:19] the what we call a theory [00:43:20] of change. You know, [00:43:21] how change [00:43:22] works [00:43:23] between those [00:43:24] two perspectives. [00:43:25] So mine is very much a [00:43:26] developing world perspective.

[00:43:27] Let's get, let's get dirty, [00:43:28] let's do the work, 'cause it is [00:43:29] a clear and present [00:43:30] danger because, [00:43:31] you know, living [00:43:32] in a place like [00:43:33] Shanghai, for example, it, [00:43:34] it's

The AI data centers and the fight over your local water supply 💻🚱🔥

John Pabon: always [00:43:35] in your face. You [00:43:36] are breathing [00:43:37] dirty air, drinking [00:43:38] dirty water, eating [00:43:39] polluted food. You know, it's, it's [00:43:40] a clear and present [00:43:41] danger, whereas [00:43:42] somebody in New [00:43:43] York, I'm painting with [00:43:44] broad strokes again, [00:43:45] in a high-rise [00:43:46] on Madison Avenue [00:43:47] is not thinking about [00:43:48] that stuff.

So [00:43:49] communities, [00:43:50] marginalized communities are [00:43:51] always going to bear the [00:43:52] brunt of the impact [00:43:53] of the decisions that [00:43:54] happen in those [00:43:55] corner suites [00:43:56] and in places [00:43:57] that most of us [00:43:58] just will never have [00:43:59] access to.[00:44:00] [00:44:01]

Bruce Anthony: I, I-- [00:44:02] One [00:44:03] thing that we can't... [00:44:04] Well, I mean, there is [00:44:05] a way to get more [00:44:06] land, but [00:44:07] th-one of the things that [00:44:08] really land is not [00:44:09] growing on trees. And one [00:44:10] of the things that [00:44:11] I've noticed [00:44:12] recently is [00:44:13] the [00:44:14] uproar, [00:44:15] justifiably so, of these [00:44:16] AI data [00:44:17] centers going [00:44:18] [00:44:19] all over the US, [00:44:20] right? And [00:44:21] they tend to put them [00:44:22] just like they did [00:44:23] nuclear power plants in [00:44:24] kind of rural [00:44:25] areas where there's [00:44:26] not a lot of money, [00:44:27] and those people are [00:44:28] affected the [00:44:29] most, uh, [00:44:30] from whatever [00:44:31] catastrophe [00:44:32] happens.

[00:44:33] However, like I [00:44:34] said, [00:44:35] land isn't growing, [00:44:36] so these [00:44:37] AI data centers [00:44:38] are gonna get closer [00:44:39] and closer to [00:44:40] these, uh, [00:44:41] metropolises [00:44:42] and are [00:44:43] going to [00:44:44] affect the water [00:44:45] supply. Do you [00:44:46] see [00:44:47] [00:44:48] situations like [00:44:49] that finally [00:44:50] opening [00:44:51] eyes of [00:44:52] people [00:44:53] who, like that [00:44:54] person you described, [00:44:55] that high-rise in [00:44:56] New York who is [00:44:57] completely unaware of [00:44:58] the things that are going [00:44:59] on that don't [00:45:00] affect them now, [00:45:01] but [00:45:02] will eventually in the [00:45:03] future?

John Pabon: The [00:45:04] unfortunate [00:45:05] reality of all of this [00:45:06] is, and this [00:45:07] is just human [00:45:08] psychology, it's nothing against [00:45:09] anybody in particular, [00:45:10] but until it affects [00:45:11] you personally, [00:45:12] you [00:45:13] are less [00:45:14] inclined to do anything [00:45:15] about it, especially when it [00:45:16] comes to issues like climate [00:45:17] change. So [00:45:18] it was, I think [00:45:19] two years ago, [00:45:20] there was a lot [00:45:21] of media [00:45:22] around how there wasn't [00:45:23] snow in the Alps [00:45:24] that skiing season [00:45:25] and how the wealthy [00:45:26] were impacted by this.

And [00:45:27] all of a sudden, [00:45:28] a few wealthy people [00:45:29] started to care because it was [00:45:30] impacting their ski [00:45:31] season. I, I, I [00:45:32] realize how that sounds. [00:45:33] But, you know, these are the [00:45:34] sort of things that until it [00:45:35] impacts you [00:45:36] directly, it [00:45:37] is very rare that you're [00:45:38] going to do anything [00:45:39] about it. So data centers are [00:45:40] a great [00:45:41] example of how [00:45:42] people are now, [00:45:43] especially [00:45:44] in the developed [00:45:45] world, this is one of [00:45:46] those instances [00:45:47] where they're being directly [00:45:48] impacted and they're [00:45:49] tying this [00:45:50] to things like water [00:45:51] supply, [00:45:52] uh, climate change, of [00:45:53] course, as well, [00:45:54] just noise [00:45:55] pollution because [00:45:56] these things are quite [00:45:57] noisy, [00:45:58] and just disruption [00:45:59] of, of their [00:46:00] lives.

So [00:46:01] all of those are [00:46:02] making people kind of [00:46:03] wake up a little [00:46:04] bit, I think, in a lot of [00:46:05] respects. And you're seeing a lot of this on [00:46:06] social media where [00:46:07] people now look at data [00:46:08] centers as [00:46:09] these big evil [00:46:10] Death Stars, which they [00:46:11] absolutely are. We don't [00:46:12] need this stuff [00:46:13] in the, the [00:46:14] scale that we are [00:46:15] needing or using it [00:46:16] now.

And a, [00:46:17] a great example of [00:46:18] people kind of waking up [00:46:19] was a response [00:46:20] to, it was just a few [00:46:21] days ago, The Wall Street [00:46:22] Journal ran a piece [00:46:23] saying [00:46:24] that we don't [00:46:25] need as much [00:46:26] water [00:46:27] every day [00:46:28] as we think we do, [00:46:29] right? You're drinking too much [00:46:30] water. It's not [00:46:31] good for your health, blah, [00:46:32] blah, blah. The [00:46:33] response by and [00:46:34] large is, "Oh, [00:46:35] did a data [00:46:36] center write this?"

Or, [00:46:37] "Oh, you know, they're, [00:46:38] they're, uh, soft [00:46:39] launching water [00:46:40] shortages because of data centers." [00:46:41] So people are [00:46:42] waking up and they're [00:46:43] fighting back against this. [00:46:44] And I, I, [00:46:45] I did a post the other day [00:46:46] about that article [00:46:47] saying, you know, this is kind of [00:46:48] the, you [00:46:49] know, the, the logical [00:46:50] endpoint of [00:46:51] greenwashing. If you lie [00:46:52] enough, nobody's gonna [00:46:53] trust a word that comes out of

Spotting the real from the fake down the grocery store aisle 🛒🔍🧾

John Pabon: your [00:46:54] mouth.

And again, the [00:46:55] media is complicit in [00:46:56] their greenwashing as well. [00:46:57] So, you know, [00:46:58] and The Wall Street [00:46:59] Journal of, of all the [00:47:00] organizations, of [00:47:01] course, it's a right-leaning [00:47:02] news outlet, so of course, [00:47:03] they're lying about climate [00:47:04] change. Nobody's gonna trust what [00:47:05] you're saying. And [00:47:06] are they right [00:47:07] in not trusting what The [00:47:08] Wall Street Journal is pushing [00:47:09] around not drinking water?

[00:47:10] Absolutely. I, I think it [00:47:11] is, you know, sort [00:47:12] of soft launching water [00:47:13] shortages. So [00:47:14] people are [00:47:15] absolutely waking up, and [00:47:16] I think we need more [00:47:17] people to, to [00:47:18] wake up even [00:47:19] faster.[00:47:20]

Bruce Anthony: So the Wall [00:47:21] Street Journal, New [00:47:22] York Post, [00:47:23] you know, these are [00:47:24] clear [00:47:25] examples of [00:47:26] greenwashing [00:47:27] and probably even [00:47:28] bluewashing. But [00:47:29] let's, let's [00:47:30] break it down to [00:47:31] something a little bit [00:47:32] [00:47:33] easier for [00:47:34] a person [00:47:35] to [00:47:36] digest. [00:47:37] And [00:47:38] just walking into the [00:47:39] grocery store, what are [00:47:40] some [00:47:41] examples when they're [00:47:42] strolling down the [00:47:43] aisles of [00:47:44] [00:47:45] greenwashing and bluewashing?

How [00:47:46] can they tell [00:47:47] the [00:47:48] real from the [00:47:49] fake?

John Pabon: Yeah, [00:47:50] that's a great, great [00:47:51] question. So it is [00:47:52] really important when you're at the [00:47:53] store, whether that's the [00:47:54] grocery store or you're, [00:47:55] you're doing your [00:47:56] shopping, you know, buying some [00:47:57] clothes, whatever it might [00:47:58] be, [00:47:59] to look out for a few [00:48:00] things. So the [00:48:01] first [00:48:02] is what's [00:48:03] just essentially [00:48:04] green speak, [00:48:05] marketing speak, [00:48:06] right?

So if you're [00:48:07] looking at a package, for [00:48:08] example, and you [00:48:09] turn it around and [00:48:10] you're reading the back of [00:48:11] it, [00:48:12] and something just [00:48:13] doesn't feel right, [00:48:14] like they're using too [00:48:15] much scientific [00:48:16] jargon or [00:48:17] statistics that they can't back [00:48:18] up, [00:48:19] you might wanna take a [00:48:20] minute and [00:48:21] really [00:48:22] examine what's going on [00:48:23] there because they may be [00:48:24] lying to you.

So that's [00:48:25] certainly one way. [00:48:26] The [00:48:27] second, and I'm gonna use a fancy [00:48:28] term, but then I'm gonna break it [00:48:29] down, is the use of [00:48:30] semiotics. Now, [00:48:31] semiotics is [00:48:32] marketing, a [00:48:33] marketing word [00:48:34] where people and [00:48:35] companies use [00:48:36] colors and [00:48:37] symbols to denote [00:48:38] meaning, and you [00:48:39] see this a lot. [00:48:40] In the [00:48:41] greenwashing space, the one you [00:48:42] see quite a bit [00:48:43] is a green [00:48:44] box. [00:48:45] Okay, so your box [00:48:46] is green. What does that [00:48:47] mean? Does, does [00:48:48] that mean you're [00:48:49] sustainable? No, but they're [00:48:50] trying to give the [00:48:51] impression they are just [00:48:52] by painting the [00:48:53] box green. [00:48:54] Or they'll [00:48:55] use [00:48:56] pretty images. [00:48:57] Uh, my-- Some of my [00:48:58] least favorite favorites [00:48:59] are car [00:49:00] commercials where a [00:49:01] car is driving through [00:49:02] a pristine [00:49:03] forest.

[00:49:04] It's still a car, [00:49:05] right? So they're, they're [00:49:06] trying to give an impression of [00:49:07] something that they can't [00:49:08] really back up. So be [00:49:09] careful of those sort of [00:49:10] images as [00:49:11] well. [00:49:12] The other [00:49:13] thing are [00:49:14] certificates. So [00:49:15] sometimes [00:49:16] organizations or companies will [00:49:17] have stamps of [00:49:18] approval on their [00:49:19] packages. Some are very, very [00:49:20] reputable.

The [00:49:21] biggest one that most people [00:49:22] might recognize is [00:49:23] a little tree [00:49:24] frog. It's called the [00:49:25] Rainforest Alliance. [00:49:26] You see it on [00:49:27] things like [00:49:28] cocoa, coffee, [00:49:29] tea, [00:49:30] and a company that [00:49:31] has that stamp on their [00:49:32] pack means that [00:49:33] they've gone through a pretty [00:49:34] rigorous [00:49:35] certification. So [00:49:36] they're good. You can trust [00:49:37] them. Uh, the B [00:49:38] Corp [00:49:39] certification, so it's a black and [00:49:40] white B in a [00:49:41] circle.

That's a [00:49:42] good one to look out for [00:49:43] as well. That means a [00:49:44] company is quite [00:49:45] sustainable. So keep an eye out [00:49:46] for those. [00:49:47] And the [00:49:48] last is really to just [00:49:49] kinda trust your gut. A [00:49:50] lot of times these [00:49:51] companies think they're smarter [00:49:52] than they are. [00:49:53] It's, it's pretty [00:49:54] easy to see [00:49:55] through some of this stuff once [00:49:56] you are-- you [00:49:57] have your eyes open and you [00:49:58] realize it's happening.

You go, "Okay, [00:49:59] I, I can sort of see [00:50:00] how they're trying to lie." [00:50:01] There are plenty of [00:50:02] choices at the [00:50:03] grocery store [00:50:04] especially, so if [00:50:05] something feels a little bit off, [00:50:06] put it down [00:50:07] and then get something [00:50:08] else. And, uh, one [00:50:09] little additional one, and [00:50:10] nobody's really gonna wanna [00:50:11] hear this, and I hate that I have [00:50:12] to say it, but [00:50:13] in, in our [00:50:14] current reality and [00:50:15] where we are in the universe [00:50:16] and in our timeline, [00:50:17] you're gonna have to [00:50:18] research.

You're gonna have to pull out [00:50:19] your phone [00:50:20] and do a bit of [00:50:21] research on your own. I'm [00:50:22] sorry, but that's [00:50:23] just the clear reality [00:50:24] if you wanna make the right [00:50:25] decision. I don't wanna do [00:50:26] that. I get it. [00:50:27] I know you're not gonna [00:50:28] wanna do that. Nobody's gonna [00:50:29] wanna do that, but that's [00:50:30] sort of where we are. [00:50:31] So if you wanna fight [00:50:32] back against these companies [00:50:33] that are doing the wrong [00:50:34] thing, pull out your phone.

[00:50:35] You have all the information in [00:50:36] the world in the palm of your [00:50:37] hand. Spend two seconds [00:50:38] and do a quick search [00:50:39] and find out what [00:50:40] the truth really [00:50:41] is.​

Bruce Anthony: [00:50:42] [00:50:43] [00:50:44] [00:50:45] [00:50:46] [00:50:47] [00:50:48] [00:50:49] [00:50:50] Look, you [00:50:51] are [00:50:52] preaching [00:50:53] literally what [00:50:54] this podcast [00:50:55] is about. [00:50:56] You are [00:50:57] talking to a [00:50:58] researcher when I do the show [00:50:59] with my sister, [00:51:00] two [00:51:01] researchers. So [00:51:02] we will [00:51:03] always, mm, [00:51:04] this sound a little [00:51:05] funky. Let me go ahead. [00:51:06] Google [00:51:07] can give you [00:51:08] a lot of information. [00:51:09] Now you gotta check your [00:51:10] sources 'cause Google will [00:51:11] give you, will [00:51:12] pull from everything, so [00:51:13] check the sources.[00:51:14]

But [00:51:15] yes, [00:51:16] ladies and gentlemen, [00:51:17] you [00:51:18] don't know [00:51:19] something? Don't [00:51:20] just [00:51:21] fly by the seat of your [00:51:22] pants. [00:51:23] Pull the little [00:51:24] computer out in your phone, [00:51:25] in your, in your [00:51:26] pocket. That's your [00:51:27] phone. Type [00:51:28] in something in [00:51:29] Google and [00:51:30] figure it out. Do [00:51:31] some research. [00:51:32] Look, Jon, [00:51:33] thank you for saying [00:51:34] that because [00:51:35] it needs [00:51:36] to be stressed [00:51:37] more and more and more. [00:51:38] [00:51:39] [00:51:40] People that have been [00:51:41] listening to this [00:51:42] podcast, [00:51:43] you warned them. You [00:51:44] said it's gonna sound a little [00:51:45] pessimistic, [00:51:46] right? And you [00:51:47] also said that you didn't [00:51:48] wanna do what about

Are there any genuinely good companies still left out there 🤔✅🏆

Bruce Anthony: [00:51:49] isms, [00:51:50] right? Where a [00:51:51] company will do [00:51:52] good and then [00:51:53] people say, "Well, look [00:51:54] about that bad," or [00:51:55] they'll do bad [00:51:56] and then people say, "Well, [00:51:57] what about the good?" [00:51:58] [00:51:59] In the [00:52:00] space that you're in right [00:52:01] now, are there [00:52:02] any just good [00:52:03] companies? I [00:52:04] mean, just [00:52:05] good. [00:52:06] Or has this [00:52:07] entire [00:52:08] economy of [00:52:09] do good [00:52:10] [00:52:11] ca- [00:52:12] captured [00:52:13] all of these companies [00:52:14] and there is no [00:52:15] company that's [00:52:16] completely [00:52:17] clean?

John Pabon: Look, well, [00:52:18] look, there is no such thing [00:52:19] as a perfect company. We'll [00:52:20] start out with that, right? [00:52:21] We know that. No such [00:52:22] thing. So if we take [00:52:23] that as our, our basis [00:52:24] of reality, then [00:52:25] yeah, there are companies that [00:52:26] are doing far better than [00:52:27] others. Uh, the [00:52:28] kind of the [00:52:29] poster child of this is [00:52:30] Patagonia [00:52:31] until recently.

We're not [00:52:32] gonna get into the, the [00:52:33] gory details of that. [00:52:34] But Patagonia, [00:52:35] the clothing company, [00:52:36] they do amazing [00:52:37] things, and they're a company [00:52:38] that if somebody is [00:52:39] looking for clothing and [00:52:40] they can afford that, I [00:52:41] understand that's coming from [00:52:42] a, a space of [00:52:43] privilege if you can, [00:52:44] that's great. [00:52:45] Go absolutely with [00:52:46] Patagonia.

[00:52:47] There are other [00:52:48] smaller [00:52:49] organizations, usually [00:52:50] local, more [00:52:51] local or national [00:52:52] organizations that tend to do [00:52:53] quite well. I think about [00:52:54] here in, [00:52:55] in Melbourne, [00:52:56] Australia, there are plenty [00:52:57] of, [00:52:58] let's call [00:52:59] them... They're local [00:53:00] companies, even though they have a sort [00:53:01] of a, a couple [00:53:02] outfits, but they're [00:53:03] not multinational [00:53:04] organizations.[00:53:05]

They do amazing [00:53:06] things too. A lot of [00:53:07] those that I was mentioning with [00:53:08] the, the B [00:53:09] logo, the B [00:53:10] Corp, B black and white [00:53:11] in a circle logo, [00:53:12] they're really [00:53:13] great organizations [00:53:14] that are, are doing [00:53:15] amazing things. [00:53:16] Uh, let's see who [00:53:17] else, and I'm sure people are gonna [00:53:18] say, "Oh, what about, what [00:53:19] about..." I know this is gonna happen [00:53:20] when I say these names.

[00:53:21] Uh, Oatly [00:53:22] is a good [00:53:23] organization. The, the milk [00:53:24] company, they do great [00:53:25] things. [00:53:26] Uh, there are some-- [00:53:27] Hmm, this is the one that's gonna [00:53:28] throw people

Patagonia and its slow fall from planet first to private equity 🧥📉💰

John Pabon: for a loop. [00:53:29] Walmart is a [00:53:30] good [00:53:31] organization.

Bruce Anthony: What? [00:53:32] Hold

on. [00:53:33] [00:53:34] Wha- I, wanna get to [00:53:35] Walmart. I wanna get [00:53:36] to Walmart. [00:53:37] I wanna get to Walmart, [00:53:38] but Jon, you skipped [00:53:39] over something and I'm [00:53:40] messy, and we can't [00:53:41] just, we can't just [00:53:42] skip over it. A, [00:53:43] a friend of mine [00:53:44] took me into [00:53:45] a Patagonia [00:53:46] store [00:53:47] last year, [00:53:48] and I was like, [00:53:49] "This is all [00:53:50] highfalutin. [00:53:51] I, I, I wanna get outta [00:53:52] here."

[00:53:53] But I heard [00:53:54] that they do a lot of great [00:53:55] things. What is the, the [00:53:56] current [00:53:57] controversy? 'Cause you said, [00:53:58] "I don't wanna get into that," [00:53:59] but I, uh, I mean, [00:54:00] you, you [00:54:01] kinda, you kinda opened the[00:54:02]

John Pabon: So for, [00:54:03] uh, you're right. Fair, I [00:54:04] did. Uh, so for [00:54:05] years Patagonia [00:54:06] was kind of the, the poster [00:54:07] child of a good [00:54:08] sustainable company. They started [00:54:09] off really, [00:54:10] uh, with, uh, more of a [00:54:11] so- as a social [00:54:12] enterprise. They've been doing that for [00:54:13] decades. Uh, [00:54:14] they give back to the [00:54:15] planet. They [00:54:16] are really good [00:54:17] with, uh, their [00:54:18] clothing.

So essentially [00:54:19] if you [00:54:20] buy something from [00:54:21] them and it gets a [00:54:22] hole in it or you've [00:54:23] worn it out, 'cause a lot of it [00:54:24] is hiking gear, [00:54:25] you take it back, they [00:54:26] either fix it for [00:54:27] you, so they'll sew it up, [00:54:28] or you [00:54:29] trade it in for a [00:54:30] new, you know, [00:54:31] piece of clothing. [00:54:32] Great sort of [00:54:33] business model. Amazing. [00:54:34] And they've done amazing [00:54:35] things.

And [00:54:36] in [00:54:37] 2022, I [00:54:38] believe, their [00:54:39] founder, [00:54:40] basically [00:54:41] he was retiring and [00:54:42] he secured [00:54:43] all of the [00:54:44] board seats, the, [00:54:45] the shareholder [00:54:46] seats for the [00:54:47] planet. So [00:54:48] he, he created some [00:54:49] sort of clever [00:54:50] accounting where now the [00:54:51] business actually [00:54:52] belongs to planet [00:54:53] Earth. I don't know how it [00:54:54] works. It's not my field of, [00:54:55] of expertise, [00:54:56] but that's sort of, [00:54:57] you know, how [00:54:58] serious they were about [00:54:59] doing good for the [00:55:00] planet and society.

[00:55:01] But then [00:55:02] as we've seen [00:55:03] happen time and time again, [00:55:04] private equity got [00:55:05] involved, and so [00:55:06] now they've, they've [00:55:07] sort of devolved [00:55:08] into a, a [00:55:09] lot of [00:55:10] equity squabbles. The [00:55:11] most recent [00:55:12] was with a, [00:55:13] a [00:55:14] drag queen [00:55:15] activist called [00:55:16] Pattygonia. Uh, [00:55:17] so they sued [00:55:18] her earlier [00:55:19] this year, I believe, [00:55:20] for, uh, trademark [00:55:21] infringement [00:55:22] instead of realizing [00:55:23] that, uh, obviously there [00:55:24] was a, a really good [00:55:25] match there where they could have [00:55:26] used each other's [00:55:27] platforms to help each other [00:55:28] out.

But that didn't happen. [00:55:29] So you can see [00:55:30] the timbre of the company [00:55:31] really changing [00:55:32] from one of good [00:55:33] for the planet [00:55:34] to, uh, more [00:55:35] private equity based. [00:55:36] So that's the controversy [00:55:37] with Patagonia. Uh, [00:55:38] but that doesn't mean [00:55:39] stop shopping [00:55:40] with them if you can afford [00:55:41] it. I know it's, uh, [00:55:42] again, it's coming from a [00:55:43] place of privilege.

It's [00:55:44] very expensive. [00:55:45] And, uh, that [00:55:46] too, I think is something [00:55:47] that when we talk about

The Walmart paradox, a villain at home and a hero once abroad 🛒😈😇

John Pabon: [00:55:48] [00:55:49] sustainability, [00:55:50] along with [00:55:51] researching, you're probably gonna [00:55:52] have to pay more [00:55:53] if you, [00:55:54] you know, you want to buy [00:55:55] something truly [00:55:56] sustainable, and that's just the [00:55:57] reality of things [00:55:58] unfortunately. To, to [00:55:59] be a sustainable company, [00:56:00] to have a sustainable product, [00:56:01] it costs more to [00:56:02] produce [00:56:03] mostly because you're actually [00:56:04] people-- paying [00:56:05] people not slave [00:56:06] wages.

[00:56:07] That's really what it comes down [00:56:08] to. Like, you think of things [00:56:09] like fast fashion, the [00:56:10] Uniqlo's and the Shein's of [00:56:11] the world. Yeah, you might [00:56:12] [00:56:13] pay $2 for that [00:56:14] T-shirt, but somewhere along the [00:56:15] line, someone else is paying [00:56:16] it in blood and [00:56:17] sweat. So [00:56:18] we have, we have to remember that [00:56:19] as well. It's not [00:56:20] always the [00:56:21] proper [00:56:22] cost that we're [00:56:23] paying.

Bruce Anthony: Well, I mean, [00:56:24] that leads me straight [00:56:25] into Walmart [00:56:26] because, I mean, [00:56:27] [00:56:28] you said [00:56:29] Walmart does some

John Pabon: we didn't [00:56:30] plan

Bruce Anthony: they actually pay... [00:56:31] No. [00:56:32] I mean, they pay [00:56:33] slave [00:56:34] labor, right? [00:56:35] They, they [00:56:36] specifically have a [00:56:37] practice where they [00:56:38] keep people from [00:56:39] working full-time, [00:56:40] where [00:56:41] they

John Pabon: the United [00:56:42] States

Bruce Anthony: in the [00:56:43] United States, and, and, [00:56:44] and they generate [00:56:45] [00:56:46] money [00:56:47] from having [00:56:48] these people [00:56:49] [00:56:50] [00:56:51] [00:56:52] Work under [00:56:53] full-time, being [00:56:54] underpaid, signing [00:56:55] up for social [00:56:56] issues, [00:56:57] social [00:56:58] programs, and [00:56:59] then coming [00:57:00] back to the store [00:57:01] to shop with those [00:57:02] social programs, [00:57:03] SNAP being one of [00:57:04] them.

So please [00:57:05] tell me, please, [00:57:06] how is [00:57:07] Walmart one of those [00:57:08] good companies?[00:57:09]

John Pabon: Yep. So, and this [00:57:10] goes back to something that [00:57:11] I, I think we touched on a little [00:57:12] bit earlier, which is, [00:57:13] and I [00:57:14] think it was through the lens of [00:57:15] Target, which obviously is [00:57:16] one of their big competitors. [00:57:17] What, what happens in [00:57:18] the US is [00:57:19] important, and it, it [00:57:20] gets the lion's share of the [00:57:21] media, but it's just [00:57:22] a microcosm [00:57:23] of these multinational [00:57:24] businesses, right?

It's only [00:57:25] one part. So [00:57:26] while the US may be [00:57:27] horrendous, [00:57:28] and in the US, [00:57:29] Walmart absolutely, [00:57:30] and they have been since [00:57:31] the start. They're, they're [00:57:32] Satan incarnate. They're [00:57:33] really bad [00:57:34] as a company. [00:57:35] But in places [00:57:36] like China, and, [00:57:37] and I-- this is not [00:57:38] a promo for [00:57:39] Walmart. I, I worked as a [00:57:40] consultant [00:57:41] for them, not with them.[00:57:42]

Uh, for, [00:57:43] for many years, [00:57:44] we cr- we [00:57:45] developed and, and [00:57:46] did this [00:57:47] program called the Women [00:57:48] in Factories program. [00:57:49] And what [00:57:50] we would do is we would go into [00:57:51] their [00:57:52] 60-ish factories [00:57:53] across China, and we would [00:57:54] offer [00:57:55] [00:57:56] basically life [00:57:57] education, let's call it [00:57:58] that, because a lot of times [00:57:59] these people who are working in [00:58:00] these factories [00:58:01] don't, don't get these sort of [00:58:02] things in school.

So [00:58:03] anything from [00:58:04] financial [00:58:05] literacy to [00:58:06] reproductive health [00:58:07] to, [00:58:08] uh, [00:58:09] communications and, and [00:58:10] on-the-job [00:58:11] training to sort [00:58:12] of level up and [00:58:13] go from blue [00:58:14] collar to white collar, these [00:58:15] sorts of things that [00:58:16] otherwise, uh, [00:58:17] because of the [00:58:18] scale and size of China, the [00:58:19] government can't do, [00:58:20] society is not [00:58:21] doing, and, and the [00:58:22] education is not doing.

[00:58:23] So [00:58:24] the Walmart [00:58:25] Foundation sponsored this, [00:58:26] and they invested all the [00:58:27] money into doing this [00:58:28] because they saw, again, [00:58:29] that long-term [00:58:30] trajectory of, of [00:58:31] building out [00:58:32] [00:58:33] happier, healthier, more [00:58:34] productive workers. [00:58:35] Obviously, that's the [00:58:36] pragmatic side. [00:58:37] But the altruistic [00:58:38] side means you [00:58:39] create more, more [00:58:40] socially conscious [00:58:41] people that are just [00:58:42] living happier, [00:58:43] more fulfilled [00:58:44] lives.

And the reason I [00:58:45] say that Walmart [00:58:46] from that perspective [00:58:47] is good is [00:58:48] because we're not talking [00:58:49] about five [00:58:50] or 10 or 15 [00:58:51] women going through this [00:58:52] program. Over the course of the [00:58:53] three-year program, I [00:58:54] think there were [00:58:55] over a million women that went through [00:58:56] the program. [00:58:57] And that's the kind of [00:58:58] scale that [00:58:59] only...

And, and the [00:59:00] reason why, and we didn't talk [00:59:01] about this at all, [00:59:02] but the reason why I [00:59:03] work with the private sector [00:59:04] is because that's the [00:59:05] scale that [00:59:06] only a private sector [00:59:07] company can have [00:59:08] when it comes to [00:59:09] impacting in a positive [00:59:10] way the lives [00:59:11] of, of people and [00:59:12] the future of the [00:59:13] planet. Now, is [00:59:14] every company doing that at [00:59:15] that scale?

[00:59:16] No. Is [00:59:17] Walmart talking about the [00:59:18] fact they did that? No. [00:59:19] Which drives me up the [00:59:20] wall 'cause they should talk [00:59:21] about that, but I get why they [00:59:22] don't, [00:59:23] because what's

How you can make sustainability feel sexy instead of just scary 💃✨🌱

John Pabon: happening in the [00:59:24] US means it's, [00:59:25] uh, pretty [00:59:26] abhorrent as a company from [00:59:27] a, a PR perspective. [00:59:28] I get that. But [00:59:29] it's not [00:59:30] as if these [00:59:31] large [00:59:32] corporations are sitting around [00:59:33] doing nothing [00:59:34] all the time.

Some are [00:59:35] doing amazing [00:59:36] things, impacting [00:59:37] people and the planet at scale [00:59:38] that we just never hear [00:59:39] about. [00:59:40] But don't shop at [00:59:41] Walmart.

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:42] ladies and [00:59:43] gentlemen,

John Pabon: you're in the US, [00:59:44] don't shop there.[00:59:45]

Bruce Anthony: Well, [00:59:46] ladies and gentlemen, you heard [00:59:47] it here on the [00:59:48] podcast, [00:59:49] "Unsolicited [00:59:50] Perspectives," first and [00:59:51] foremost, [00:59:52] that Walmart [00:59:53] does good everywhere [00:59:54] else except [00:59:55] for in the [00:59:56] US.

John Pabon: Pretty [00:59:57] much.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. [00:59:58] [00:59:59] Um, [01:00:00] y- [01:00:01] because you're in [01:00:02] sustainability, [01:00:03] [01:00:04] you've kind of [01:00:05] created [01:00:06] this, this, [01:00:07] this, I don't know if [01:00:08] it's a slogan [01:00:09] or [01:00:10] momentum or [01:00:11] push [01:00:12] to make [01:00:13] sustainability [01:00:14] sexy and [01:00:15] make it not [01:00:16] scary.[01:00:17]

Can you [01:00:18] explain to me [01:00:19] what that [01:00:20] means [01:00:21] and what type of [01:00:22] smart [01:00:23] [01:00:24] communication and [01:00:25] spinning [01:00:26] can create a [01:00:27] prettier version [01:00:28] of [01:00:29] everything [01:00:30] that you [01:00:31] were [01:00:32] pessimistic about [01:00:33] [01:00:34] in this [01:00:35] conversation?

John Pabon: [01:00:36] absolutely. So [01:00:37] in my, uh, [01:00:38] in my, my... I [01:00:39] hate saying this. In my [01:00:40] first book, um, it [01:00:41] is Sustainability For The Rest [01:00:42] of Us, I, I talk [01:00:43] about [01:00:44] how [01:00:45] we've... [01:00:46] Can, can I [01:00:47] use profanity?[01:00:48]

Bruce Anthony: Little bit. [01:00:49] Yeah, go ahead

John Pabon: [01:00:50] Okay, there's a chapter called [01:00:51] "Don't Be a Dick," [01:00:52] because I, I [01:00:53] think, you know... That [01:00:54] doesn't count. Okay. It's [01:00:55] not the C-bomb. Uh, [01:00:56] don't be a dick.

So [01:00:57] it, it's, [01:00:58] it's, uh, [01:00:59] around this idea that [01:01:00] we've done, and it [01:01:01] just goes back to communications, [01:01:02] we've done a really bad [01:01:03] job at [01:01:04] communicating what we do, but also [01:01:05] bringing people along [01:01:06] with us on that [01:01:07] journey, right? It's always [01:01:08] been very [01:01:09] much led by, [01:01:10] and God bless them, [01:01:11] [01:01:12] activists, you know, the greenies, [01:01:13] the, the hippies like [01:01:14] my mom was, [01:01:15] that, uh, have been the [01:01:16] poster children for the [01:01:17] movement.

And if [01:01:18] that is [01:01:19] who is on [01:01:20] the, the posters [01:01:21] for sustainability, [01:01:22] 99% of [01:01:23] the population doesn't want [01:01:24] anything to do with them, [01:01:25] right? They're looking at them going, [01:01:26] "I, I, uh, that's, that's [01:01:27] gross. I don't want anything to do with [01:01:28] that." Meanwhile, [01:01:29] the majority of [01:01:30] people in this field, [01:01:31] my colleagues, they kinda... [01:01:32] They're just normal people [01:01:33] like me, right?

We're not [01:01:34] hippies. We're not [01:01:35] walking around without our shoes, at [01:01:36] least not anymore, [01:01:37] uh, on, on a [01:01:38] field somewhere at some [01:01:39] festival, right? We're just [01:01:40] normal people going [01:01:41] about our daily lives. So I [01:01:42] think that's kinda step [01:01:43] one is, is [01:01:44] showing the true [01:01:45] face of this, and that it's [01:01:46] not a fringe thing [01:01:47] anymore led [01:01:48] by greenies and [01:01:49] activists, and you don't need [01:01:50] to go hang off the side [01:01:51] of a whaling ship [01:01:52] to, to make a [01:01:53] difference, right?

There are [01:01:54] things you can do in your [01:01:55] daily life, day in [01:01:56] and day out, that [01:01:57] will do that [01:01:58] for you. There's [01:01:59] also [01:02:00] academics that love [01:02:01] to [01:02:02] overanalyze and, and make [01:02:03] really [01:02:04] confusing scientific [01:02:05] jargon or, or [01:02:06] convoluted [01:02:07] methodologies. [01:02:08] We love this, and I, [01:02:09] I cannot [01:02:10] stand them, and they exist [01:02:11] all throughout this [01:02:12] space.

And, you [01:02:13] know, luckily, a [01:02:14] lot of people are sort of [01:02:15] laughing at them now. They're [01:02:16] important. Sure, the scientists are [01:02:17] absolutely important, but [01:02:18] not the ones that just [01:02:19] sit on their high horse in [01:02:20] academia and don't [01:02:21] actually [01:02:22] roll up their sleeves and do [01:02:23] anything important. So [01:02:24] that [01:02:25] is another thing that we need to [01:02:26] sort of change.

And [01:02:27] I think when I talk [01:02:28] about making [01:02:29] sustainability sexy [01:02:30] or, or [01:02:31] really simplifying [01:02:32] it, it's just about [01:02:33] showing the true nature and [01:02:34] the true face of, [01:02:35] A, who, [01:02:36] who is behind all of [01:02:37] this, and that it's not [01:02:38] too different to, [01:02:39] to everybody else. [01:02:40] B, that there [01:02:41] are simple things that [01:02:42] everybody can do day in and day [01:02:43] out.

You don't need to, [01:02:44] again, go hang off the side of a [01:02:45] whaling ship or, or [01:02:46] go put yourself in [01:02:47] harm's way. That's not [01:02:48] necessary

Where to find John Pabon and every single book that he wrote 📚📱🖊

John Pabon: at all [01:02:49] to actually [01:02:50] make a difference. And I think if [01:02:51] we start from that [01:02:52] perspective and really changing the [01:02:53] psychology of [01:02:54] people, and we talked a [01:02:55] few times throughout [01:02:56] this podcast on [01:02:57] that, whether that is [01:02:58] changing the [01:02:59] idea of [01:03:00] utopianism [01:03:01] to incremental [01:03:02] change, uh, [01:03:03] looking at all of [01:03:04] these, these different [01:03:05] perspectives and just opening [01:03:06] your eyes a little bit.[01:03:07]

That-- All of that [01:03:08] put together is gonna go a [01:03:09] long way towards [01:03:10] making this [01:03:11] space a lot [01:03:12] more approachable. So I [01:03:13] say sexy, it's [01:03:14] probably more appropriate to say [01:03:15] approachable [01:03:16] versus just something that people [01:03:17] look at and kind-- sort of [01:03:18] point and go, [01:03:19] "I don't know about all that [01:03:20] sustainability [01:03:21] [01:03:22] stuff."

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. [01:03:23] There are gonna be people [01:03:24] that were listening [01:03:25] and watching to [01:03:26] this interview, [01:03:27] and their [01:03:28] interests have [01:03:29] been piqued, [01:03:30] and they wanna [01:03:31] learn more. [01:03:32] [01:03:33] Where can they go to [01:03:34] learn more about [01:03:35] what you're talking about? 'Cause you [01:03:36] got books. [01:03:37] You've [01:03:38] got books[01:03:39]

John Pabon: Once [01:03:40] you're on the, the, the [01:03:41] writing hamster [01:03:42] wheel, you cannot get [01:03:43] off. [01:03:44] So, uh, [01:03:45] yes, I have, I have [01:03:46] three books, uh, out [01:03:47] currently. So [01:03:48] I have [01:03:49] "Sustainability for the Rest [01:03:50] of Us," "The Great [01:03:51] Greenwashing," which we talked [01:03:52] about today mostly, [01:03:53] and then [01:03:54] "Strategic Sustainability," which [01:03:55] is more of a, a [01:03:56] business book.

If you're in [01:03:57] the business world, please [01:03:58] check that out. It just came out a [01:03:59] few months ago. [01:04:00] And then my new book [01:04:01] will come out next year called [01:04:02] "Eat the Rich." I'm really [01:04:03] excited for [01:04:04] that. So definitely check out [01:04:05] the books. Uh, [01:04:06] I'm kind of... [01:04:07] I [01:04:08] hate that I'm about to say this. [01:04:09] I'm big on [01:04:10] TikTok. [01:04:11] So, uh, and [01:04:12] I, I love TikTok not [01:04:13] because I do dancing, because [01:04:14] I do not do [01:04:15] dancing, but because I can go [01:04:16] into longer form [01:04:17] and, and really explain [01:04:18] things with a bit more depth.

[01:04:19] And uh there's a [01:04:20] nice little community there [01:04:21] too. So if you're on [01:04:22] TikTok, go check [01:04:23] me out there, John [01:04:24] Pabon, and [01:04:25] then [01:04:26] also on [01:04:27] Instagram. I've just started getting a [01:04:28] bit of a following [01:04:29] so, uh, you can [01:04:30] check me out there if you're [01:04:31] [01:04:32] anti-TikTok.[01:04:33]

Bruce Anthony: All right. [01:04:34] John, I [01:04:35] wanna thank you for [01:04:36] coming on the show, [01:04:37] and I, I've [01:04:38] learned so [01:04:39] much, [01:04:40] and it's, [01:04:41] it's [01:04:42] funny [01:04:43] to [01:04:44] actually [01:04:45] put some [01:04:46] evidence [01:04:47] behind [01:04:48] your [01:04:49] conspiracy, [01:04:50] right? Like, [01:04:51] you [01:04:52] know deep down [01:04:53] inside, like, "This [01:04:54] company, I don't [01:04:55] believe this shit that they talking [01:04:56] about." But to [01:04:57] know that [01:04:58] yes, they're [01:04:59] lying to you, [01:05:00] and this is the reason [01:05:01] why.

It's that dollar [01:05:02] dollar bill, y'all. To, [01:05:03] to put that [01:05:04] in reality, [01:05:05] get, get that [01:05:06] perspective, I, I thank you [01:05:07] so much for coming [01:05:08] on this show [01:05:09] and, and just, [01:05:10] uh, [01:05:11] expanding our [01:05:12] knowledge on [01:05:13] greenwashing and [01:05:14] bluewashing [01:05:15] and [01:05:16] sustainability further [01:05:17] than [01:05:18] "Let's just peace, [01:05:19] man. Let's just [01:05:20] not [01:05:21] use as much [01:05:22] water and, and [01:05:23] go green."

Like, [01:05:24] actually [01:05:25] understand what it [01:05:26] is, even if [01:05:27] it's only an [01:05:28] hour and it's a small [01:05:29] bit of understanding. [01:05:30] I really appreciate you [01:05:31] coming on the show

John Pabon: [01:05:32] No, no, no. Thanks for [01:05:33] having me. And, and [01:05:34] absolutely do all that. Go [01:05:35] green, use less water, all [01:05:36] that sort of stuff. But [01:05:37] know that, you know, [01:05:38] f- and this is, this is [01:05:39] something, I think this is actually [01:05:40] probably a good sp- [01:05:41] spot to, to leave on. It's [01:05:42] something I talk about in [01:05:43] sustainability for the rest of [01:05:44] us. You don't need to do it [01:05:45] all, right?

We are, [01:05:46] we are altruists, [01:05:47] people that care, wanna do [01:05:48] everything. I wanna walk [01:05:49] outside, I want to [01:05:50] feed every homeless [01:05:51] person, adopt every stray [01:05:52] dog, and then go read to the [01:05:53] elderly on a weekend while [01:05:54] I'm building a house for [01:05:55] somebody that doesn't have one. You [01:05:56] can't do that. You're [01:05:57] only one person, [01:05:58] right? So find [01:05:59] what it is you're [01:06:00] passionate about, [01:06:01] and know [01:06:02] that there

Make them truly earn your trust then watch what they do next 🤝👁💯

John Pabon: are eight [01:06:03] billion people around the [01:06:04] world that will pick up where [01:06:05] you can't.

You don't need to [01:06:06] do it all. So [01:06:07] find what it is you're passionate [01:06:08] about, what it is you care [01:06:09] about, you have a special [01:06:10] skill in, or if you're [01:06:11] fortunate, you, you can [01:06:12] invest a bit of money in. [01:06:13] We need money too. [01:06:14] Let's not, let's not, [01:06:15] uh, you know, pretend [01:06:16] that doesn't exist. [01:06:17] And, and just [01:06:18] focus on that. Almost [01:06:19] have, have [01:06:20] blinders on your eyes and be [01:06:21] laser-focused on that [01:06:22] because that way you can do [01:06:23] the most good [01:06:24] versus trying to do a [01:06:25] bunch of different stuff and [01:06:26] only kinda half-assing [01:06:27] it.

So find your [01:06:28] passion point and, [01:06:29] and go for [01:06:30] it

Bruce Anthony: That's a great way [01:06:31] to end, John. Thank [01:06:32] you so much for coming on [01:06:33] the show today. I really [01:06:34] appreciate it

John Pabon: [01:06:35] Absolutely. Thanks for having [01:06:36] me

Bruce Anthony: So [01:06:37] we opened this whole [01:06:38] conversation talking [01:06:39] about trust, [01:06:40] about what [01:06:41] happens when you believe [01:06:42] somebody, [01:06:43] and then you find out [01:06:44] the version of [01:06:45] them you [01:06:46] believed in [01:06:47] wasn't really real. [01:06:48] [01:06:49] And I think that's what [01:06:50] makes this [01:06:51] conversation with Jon hit a [01:06:52] little differently, [01:06:53] because [01:06:54] we came into this [01:06:55] asking a pretty [01:06:56] simple question: [01:06:57] Is the company [01:06:58] lying to me?[01:06:59]

But by the [01:07:00] end of the [01:07:01] conversation, I don't think that's the [01:07:02] question anymore. [01:07:03] Or [01:07:04] a better [01:07:05] question is, [01:07:06] what do they get [01:07:07] if I believe [01:07:08] them? [01:07:09] Because think about it. [01:07:10] [01:07:11] If I believe the [01:07:12] company cares about their [01:07:13] environment, I might buy [01:07:14] their product. [01:07:15] If I believe they [01:07:16] care about racial [01:07:17] justice, I might [01:07:18] support their brand.[01:07:19]

If I [01:07:20] believe they actually [01:07:21] stand for something, [01:07:22] I might [01:07:23] give them my [01:07:24] money, my [01:07:25] attention, [01:07:26] and [01:07:27] my loyalty. [01:07:28] And [01:07:29] that's the part we don't [01:07:30] always want to admit, [01:07:31] that [01:07:32] trust [01:07:33] has value. [01:07:34] [01:07:35] And there are [01:07:36] people and [01:07:37] corporations who know [01:07:38] exactly how [01:07:39] valuable it [01:07:40] is. Jon [01:07:41] talked about how [01:07:42] companies can use [01:07:43] sustainability, social [01:07:44] justice, all of [01:07:45] these things that sound [01:07:46] good and feel [01:07:47] good to [01:07:48] create an image of [01:07:49] themselves that may [01:07:50] not have much to [01:07:51] do with what they're [01:07:52] actually [01:07:53] doing.[01:07:54]

And dig [01:07:55] this here. [01:07:56] Here's the uncomfortable part [01:07:57] people don't want to talk [01:07:58] about. [01:07:59] Who's [01:08:00] checking their work? [01:08:01] Because a lot of [01:08:02] the time, [01:08:03] nobody is. [01:08:04] There's no referee [01:08:05] standing there making [01:08:06] sure that [01:08:07] they [01:08:08] keep the promises that [01:08:09] they made. [01:08:10] They could put the [01:08:11] pretty words on the [01:08:12] website. They can [01:08:13] make a commercial.

They [01:08:14] could put the black [01:08:15] square up. They could put that [01:08:16] green leaves on the [01:08:17] packaging. They could [01:08:18] tell you that they're [01:08:19] changing the world, [01:08:20] and then [01:08:21] you have to [01:08:22] decide whether you [01:08:23] believe them. [01:08:24] And when you [01:08:25] don't look any [01:08:26] deeper, [01:08:27] you-- they don't have to [01:08:28] prove it. [01:08:29] That's why [01:08:30] this matters. [01:08:31] Because when [01:08:32] the [01:08:33] consequences finally [01:08:34] show up, [01:08:35] they're not always [01:08:36] landing on the people [01:08:37] who made the [01:08:38] promise.

[01:08:39] They're landing on the [01:08:40] communities that were [01:08:41] already dealing with the [01:08:42] consequences. [01:08:43] People who [01:08:44] already had less [01:08:45] power, people who [01:08:46] already had less [01:08:47] money, people who [01:08:48] already had less of a [01:08:49] voice. [01:08:50] And that's the part that should [01:08:51] piss [01:08:52] you [01:08:53] off, not [01:08:54] because you need to walk [01:08:55] around believing every [01:08:56] corporation is [01:08:57] evil.

That's [01:08:58] lazy [01:08:59] too. [01:09:00] Jon was very [01:09:01] clear about something I think is [01:09:02] important. [01:09:03] There are companies [01:09:04] doing real work. [01:09:05] There are people [01:09:06] doing real work. [01:09:07] There [01:09:08] is good [01:09:09] actually [01:09:10] happening. But just [01:09:11] because something [01:09:12] sounds good doesn't [01:09:13] mean it is [01:09:14] good.

And just [01:09:15] because somebody [01:09:16] tells you they're one of [01:09:17] the good ones [01:09:18] doesn't mean that you [01:09:19] have to take their word [01:09:20] for it. [01:09:21] That's where [01:09:22] skepticism comes [01:09:23] in. [01:09:24] Not [01:09:25] cynicism, [01:09:26] because cynicism [01:09:27] says [01:09:28] everybody is lying, [01:09:29] so why [01:09:30] bother? [01:09:31] Skepticism [01:09:32] says, [01:09:33] show me. [01:09:34] And I think [01:09:35] that's what the [01:09:36] attitudes that we [01:09:37] all need to [01:09:38] have.

[01:09:39] Show [01:09:40] me. [01:09:41] Let me see what you're [01:09:42] actually doing. [01:09:43] [01:09:44] Why don't [01:09:45] you [01:09:46] also turn the [01:09:47] package around, [01:09:48] read the fine [01:09:49] print, look at [01:09:50] receipts. Guess [01:09:51] what? Follow the [01:09:52] money, and when [01:09:53] something doesn't [01:09:54] feel right, don't [01:09:55] immediately talk [01:09:56] yourself out of it just [01:09:57] because the marketing [01:09:58] is good. [01:09:59] Do the work. [01:10:00] You got a [01:10:01] phone, ladies and [01:10:02] gentlemen.

It's in your [01:10:03] hand. [01:10:04] Take that bad boy [01:10:05] out because it can answer [01:10:06] a lot of questions [01:10:07] for you in ten [01:10:08] minutes. But [01:10:09] here's the thing, [01:10:10] sometimes we don't [01:10:11] actually wanna know. [01:10:12] Sometimes we'd [01:10:13] rather believe the [01:10:14] comfortable story [01:10:15] than dealing with the [01:10:16] uncomfortable [01:10:17] truth. [01:10:18] Don't be that person. [01:10:19] I'm not [01:10:20] saying you have to [01:10:21] become an investigative [01:10:22] journalist every time [01:10:23] you buy a damn bottle [01:10:24] of [01:10:25] shampoo or some [01:10:26] chips or [01:10:27] anything like that.[01:10:28]

You don't have to [01:10:29] save the planet by [01:10:30] Friday. You don't have to [01:10:31] fix every social [01:10:32] problem. You don't [01:10:33] have to carry [01:10:34] every issue on [01:10:35] your back. [01:10:36] John said [01:10:37] something toward the end of this [01:10:38] conversation that [01:10:39] I really, [01:10:40] really appreciated. [01:10:41] He [01:10:42] said, "You [01:10:43] don't have to do it [01:10:44] all." [01:10:45] So [01:10:46] find a thing that you [01:10:47] actually care about.[01:10:48]

Get serious [01:10:49] about it. [01:10:50] Put your energy [01:10:51] into it, [01:10:52] because if 8 billion [01:10:53] people each [01:10:54] did a little [01:10:55] bit of something, [01:10:56] instead of everybody [01:10:57] trying to do [01:10:58] everything, we'd [01:10:59] probably get a [01:11:00] hell of a lot [01:11:01] further. [01:11:02] And maybe that's a bigger [01:11:03] lesson here. [01:11:04] Don't [01:11:05] stop believing in [01:11:06] people. [01:11:07] Don't stop [01:11:08] believing that companies [01:11:09] can change.[01:11:10]

Don't stop [01:11:11] believing that [01:11:12] doing good is [01:11:13] possible. [01:11:14] Just [01:11:15] stop giving your [01:11:16] trust away for [01:11:17] free, because [01:11:18] trust isn't something that [01:11:19] somebody gets because they [01:11:20] made a [01:11:21] commercial about caring. [01:11:22] Trust isn't something [01:11:23] that they get because they [01:11:24] put the [01:11:25] right words on their [01:11:26] website. Trust [01:11:27] isn't even something [01:11:28] that they get just [01:11:29] because [01:11:30] they tell you that they're one of the [01:11:31] good ones. [01:11:32] Make these [01:11:33] people, make [01:11:34] these companies, [01:11:35] make these [01:11:36] influencers [01:11:37] earn your [01:11:38] trust, [01:11:39] and then [01:11:40] watch what they do [01:11:41] when [01:11:42] nobody is looking, [01:11:43] [01:11:44] because [01:11:45] that's [01:11:46] where the [01:11:47] truth [01:11:48] typically lies.[01:11:49]

I [01:11:50] wanna thank you for [01:11:51] listening. [01:11:52] I wanna thank you for [01:11:53] watching, [01:11:54] and until next [01:11:55] time, as [01:11:56] always, [01:11:57] [01:11:58] I'll [01:11:59] holla

[01:12:00] Woo. That was a [01:12:01] hell of a show. [01:12:02] Thank you for [01:12:03] rocking with us here on [01:12:04] Unsolicited [01:12:05] Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. [01:12:06] Now, before you [01:12:07] go, don't forget to [01:12:08] follow, [01:12:09] subscribe, [01:12:10] like, [01:12:11] comment, and share [01:12:12] our podcast. [01:12:13] Wherever you're listening or [01:12:14] watching it to it, [01:12:15] pass it along to your friends. [01:12:16] If you enjoy it, [01:12:17] that means the people that [01:12:18] you rock, we'll [01:12:19] enjoy it also.

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Donations [01:13:04] go strictly to [01:13:05] improving our software [01:13:06] and hardware so [01:13:07] we can keep giving you [01:13:08] guys good [01:13:09] content that you can [01:13:10] clearly listen [01:13:11] to and that you can [01:13:12] clearly see. So [01:13:13] any donation would [01:13:14] be appreciative. [01:13:15] Most importantly, I [01:13:16] wanna say [01:13:17] thank you, thank [01:13:18] you, thank [01:13:19] you for [01:13:20] listening and watching [01:13:21] and supporting us, [01:13:22] and I'll catch [01:13:23] you next time.[01:13:24]

Audi [01:13:25] 5,000 [01:13:26] [01:13:27] [01:13:28] [01:13:29] [01:13:30] [01:13:31] Peace.