Tom Teicher on Prison, Homelessness & the 28th Amendment | Ep 338

22 years inside failing prisons and housing and a daring fix 🏛📜🔥

Bruce Anthony: A man spends [00:00:01] 22 years [00:00:02] watching our prisons and [00:00:03] housing systems [00:00:04] fail people [00:00:05] and walks away [00:00:06] convinced the fix [00:00:07] starts with the [00:00:08] Constitution itself. [00:00:09] We gonna get [00:00:10] into it. [00:00:11] Let's get [00:00:12] it

[00:00:13] [00:00:14] [00:00:15] [00:00:16] [00:00:17] [00:00:18] [00:00:19] [00:00:20] [00:00:21] [00:00:22] [00:00:23]

Bruce Anthony: Welcome. [00:00:24] First of all, [00:00:25] welcome. This is [00:00:26] Unsolicited Perspectives. [00:00:27] I am your host, Bruce [00:00:28] Anthony, here to lead [00:00:29] the conversation in [00:00:30] important events [00:00:31] and topics that are [00:00:32] shaping today's [00:00:33] society. Join the [00:00:34] conversation and follow us [00:00:35] wherever you get your audio [00:00:36] podcasts. [00:00:37] Subscribe to our YouTube channel [00:00:38] for our video [00:00:39] podcast, YouTube exclusive [00:00:40] content, and our [00:00:41] YouTube membership.

[00:00:42] Rate, review, [00:00:43] like, [00:00:44] comment, share. [00:00:45] Share with your friends, [00:00:46] share with your [00:00:47] family. Hell, [00:00:48] even share with your [00:00:49] enemies.

On [00:00:50] today's episode,

[00:00:51] I'm sitting down with [00:00:52] Tom  Tycer a man [00:00:53] who spent 22 [00:00:54] years in the trenches [00:00:55] of prison [00:00:56] entry and homelessness [00:00:57] before he decided to take [00:00:58] on constitutional [00:00:59] reform. We're gonna be [00:01:00] talking prison, the [00:01:01] unhoused, [00:01:02] and the Constitution. [00:01:03] But that's enough of the [00:01:04] intro. [00:01:05] Let's get to the [00:01:06] show

​

Bruce Anthony: [00:01:07] [00:01:08] [00:01:09] [00:01:10] [00:01:11] [00:01:12] [00:01:13] [00:01:14] I wanna [00:01:15] start somewhere personal [00:01:16] today because this one [00:01:17] hits close to home for me. [00:01:18] I know people [00:01:19] who have been to prison [00:01:20] and have come back out of [00:01:21] it. I've seen it. [00:01:22] Not read about it, [00:01:23] seen it. [00:01:24] What [00:01:25] reentry actually [00:01:26] looks like once [00:01:27] somebody walks through [00:01:28] that prison door [00:01:29] and realizes the [00:01:30] second chance [00:01:31] everybody talks about [00:01:32] ain't [00:01:33] nearly as [00:01:34] easy as it [00:01:35] sounds.

[00:01:36] Everybody loves talking [00:01:37] about second [00:01:38] chances. Giving [00:01:39] somebody one, [00:01:40] whole different story. [00:01:41] And the thing [00:01:42] is, this ain't [00:01:43] some issue that's [00:01:44] happening somewhere [00:01:45] far away from us. [00:01:46] It's somebody's [00:01:47] family, [00:01:48] somebody you grew up with, [00:01:49] somebody down the [00:01:50] block, somebody [00:01:51] who made a bad [00:01:52] decision and now has to [00:01:53] figure out how to rebuild [00:01:54] a life when [00:01:55] the system keeps [00:01:56] reminding them [00:01:57] of the worst thing that [00:01:58] they ever did.[00:01:59]

Same [00:02:00] thing for the [00:02:01] unhoused. I've [00:02:02] talked about it on this [00:02:03] show before because [00:02:04] every time the subject [00:02:05] comes up, [00:02:06] I like to talk [00:02:07] about it because [00:02:08] idiots out there [00:02:09] love to say, "Why don't [00:02:10] they just get a job?" [00:02:11] Somebody literally said [00:02:12] that to me one time, [00:02:13] and [00:02:14] it's not that [00:02:15] simple. That answer [00:02:16] skips over everything.[00:02:17]

Meet Tom Teicher: 22 years on the front lines of the system 🧑🔒🏠

Bruce Anthony: The systems that [00:02:18] don't work, the [00:02:19] barriers people run into, [00:02:20] the reason [00:02:21] somebody can be [00:02:22] trying to get their life [00:02:23] together and [00:02:24] still end up with [00:02:25] nowhere to sleep. [00:02:26] These are [00:02:27] people, [00:02:28] not someone that [00:02:29] you step [00:02:30] around on your way to [00:02:31] lunch, [00:02:32] and that's why I wanted to [00:02:33] have this [00:02:34] conversation today. [00:02:35] My guest, Tom [00:02:36] Tyker, spent 10 [00:02:37] years working [00:02:38] in prison [00:02:39] reentry in Seattle, helping [00:02:40] people come home and [00:02:41] try to rebuild their [00:02:42] lives. Then he [00:02:43] spent another 10 [00:02:44] years working with the [00:02:45] unhoused [00:02:46] in Seattle.[00:02:47]

So when Tom talks [00:02:48] about these systems, [00:02:49] he's not talking about [00:02:50] something that he read in a [00:02:51] book. He spent more [00:02:52] than 20 [00:02:53] years actually in [00:02:54] it. He saw where [00:02:55] these institutions [00:02:56] worked, where they [00:02:57] didn't, and [00:02:58] who got left [00:02:59] behind. [00:03:00] And now he's taken that [00:03:01] experience and [00:03:02] connected it to [00:03:03] something a whole lot [00:03:04] bigger, a [00:03:05] 28th [00:03:06] amendment.

The [00:03:07] basic idea is that [00:03:08] every 40 [00:03:09] years, we should have a [00:03:10] structured process to [00:03:11] take a hard look at the [00:03:12] Constitution [00:03:13] and ask, [00:03:14] "Is this [00:03:15] thing still working the [00:03:16] way it's supposed to?" [00:03:17] Now I [00:03:18] know what a lot [00:03:19] of y'all are thinking. [00:03:20] That sounds like a good [00:03:21] idea to some [00:03:22] people, and probably scares the [00:03:23] hell out of a lot of [00:03:24] other people, [00:03:25] especially when you start [00:03:26] talking about a [00:03:27] convention with no [00:03:28] limits on what could be [00:03:29] considered. So we're [00:03:30] gonna get into [00:03:31] all of that today, [00:03:32] but for me, the [00:03:33] heart of the [00:03:34] conversation is still the people.

[00:03:35] The people coming home from [00:03:36] prison, the people [00:03:37] trying to get off the [00:03:38] streets, and the [00:03:39] people this country has [00:03:40] gotten way [00:03:41] too comfortable [00:03:42] looking right past. [00:03:43] [00:03:44] That's where I wanna [00:03:45] start. [00:03:46] That's where this [00:03:47] conversation [00:03:48] matters. So [00:03:49] without further [00:03:50] ado, [00:03:51] Tom [00:03:52] [00:03:53] Tyker

As I said [00:03:54] at [00:03:55] the top, I'm here with Tom Tycer. We're [00:03:56] going to be talking [00:03:57] about [00:03:58] re-entry [00:03:59] from prison, the [00:04:00] [00:04:01] unhoused, and his [00:04:02] idea for the [00:04:03] 28th Amendment. [00:04:04] Tom, it is my [00:04:05] pleasure to have you on the [00:04:06] show. This is very [00:04:07] interesting, [00:04:08] especially, [00:04:09] uh, your 28th [00:04:10] Amendment [00:04:11] idea. I think this is gonna be a [00:04:12] very good [00:04:13] conversation, [00:04:14] another conversation for [00:04:15] people to [00:04:16] learn the [00:04:17] process of amendments, [00:04:18] 'cause it seems like people [00:04:19] didn't get that civics [00:04:20] lesson that [00:04:21] they should have gotten [00:04:22] back in high school.

[00:04:23] But [00:04:24] thank you for coming on the [00:04:25] show and having this [00:04:26] conversation with [00:04:27] me

Tom Teicher: Well, Bruce, [00:04:28] thank you. I, I [00:04:29] really appreciate the [00:04:30] opportunity

Bruce Anthony: Of [00:04:31]

A Leave It to Beaver childhood and discovering another New York 🏡🚆🗽

Bruce Anthony: course. I [00:04:32] start every [00:04:33] interview with the [00:04:34] very same question, [00:04:35] and [00:04:36] it is, [00:04:37] let's go back in [00:04:38] time. [00:04:39] Take me to [00:04:40] you growing up, [00:04:41] your [00:04:42] upbringing, th- your [00:04:43] house that you grew up [00:04:44] in, not your literal house, [00:04:45] but the house that you grew up [00:04:46] in, your parents, your [00:04:47] upbringing. What [00:04:48] shaped you to [00:04:49] become the person that you [00:04:50] are today?[00:04:51]

Tom Teicher: [00:04:52] I, I actually think [00:04:53] that's a, a [00:04:54] very useful [00:04:55] question, at least in, in [00:04:56] my [00:04:57] case. I was born [00:04:58] in New York City. [00:04:59] I [00:05:00] grew up a [00:05:01] few miles [00:05:02] outside in New [00:05:03] Rochelle, very nice [00:05:04] town. [00:05:05] [00:05:06] I grew up [00:05:07] on a, a [00:05:08] dead-end street. Uh, the [00:05:09] word cul-de-sac didn't [00:05:10] exist then. [00:05:11] It was a [00:05:12] wonderful way [00:05:13] to grow [00:05:14] up because it was [00:05:15] very little traffic, so you [00:05:16] could play ball on the [00:05:17] street.

All the [00:05:18] kids knew all the kids. [00:05:19] All the parents knew all [00:05:20] the parents. [00:05:21] A really nice sense [00:05:22] of [00:05:23] community. I walked to my [00:05:24] local public school [00:05:25] to go to, to go to [00:05:26] school. It, it [00:05:27] was, [00:05:28] it was a very [00:05:29] "Leave It to Beaver-ish" [00:05:30] kind of [00:05:31] upbringing, and [00:05:32] I was, I [00:05:33] was really very [00:05:34] lucky. [00:05:35] And it [00:05:36] [00:05:37] gave me a sense that [00:05:38] the, um, the [00:05:39] world was my [00:05:40] oyster.

There was really [00:05:41] no [00:05:42] particular set of, [00:05:43] of limits, and that's [00:05:44] a kind of a, [00:05:45] a luxurious [00:05:46] place to [00:05:47] be. But it's, [00:05:48] um... I think there's [00:05:49] a big difference [00:05:50] [00:05:51] between looking at [00:05:52] life as [00:05:53] how do I survive, [00:05:54] how do I get by, [00:05:55] [00:05:56] versus seeing [00:05:57] that the [00:05:58] opportunities are there. [00:05:59] And yes, I've [00:06:00] got to do the work. [00:06:01] I've got to take advantage of [00:06:02] the opportunities, [00:06:03] but the doors [00:06:04] are open, and [00:06:05] if I [00:06:06] screw up at some point, [00:06:07] there will be [00:06:08] the people there to [00:06:09] help me get up and [00:06:10] [00:06:11] proceed on my journey [00:06:12] and do what [00:06:13] I need to do.[00:06:14] [00:06:15]

So it was [00:06:16] a very nice way [00:06:17] to grow up. In, uh, in [00:06:18] the early years, I would [00:06:19] call it middle-class. [00:06:20] Teen [00:06:21] years, [00:06:22] we moved to [00:06:23] the so-called [00:06:24] better side of the tracks, [00:06:25] a-and it [00:06:26] was more [00:06:27] of an upper middle-class [00:06:28] upbringing at that [00:06:29] point.

Bruce Anthony: That's [00:06:30] so interesting [00:06:31] because, you know, [00:06:32] uh, one half [00:06:33] of my family's from New [00:06:34] York City and, [00:06:35] uh, [00:06:36] almost all of the [00:06:37] boroughs. [00:06:38] And it, it's so [00:06:39] funny how [00:06:40] you have [00:06:41] this [00:06:42] [00:06:43] so [00:06:44] many different cultures [00:06:45] and groups and [00:06:46] backgrounds [00:06:47] in New York [00:06:48] City, but at a [00:06:49] certain period of [00:06:50] time, [00:06:51] uh, and, and almost [00:06:52] still [00:06:53] so much, [00:06:54] somewhat so [00:06:55] segregated.

[00:06:56] And [00:06:57] between the haves and the [00:06:58] have-nots, [00:06:59] and not just the [00:07:00] races, but the haves and the [00:07:01] have-nots, and [00:07:02] how [00:07:03] there can be a [00:07:04] melting pot [00:07:05] in certain places in New [00:07:06] York, but at the [00:07:07] same time you could [00:07:08] be very [00:07:09] excluded to [00:07:10] just your own little [00:07:11] section, as you [00:07:12] say, where you're not [00:07:13] really... [00:07:14] There are no [00:07:15] worries. It's [00:07:16] the very "Leave It to [00:07:17] Beaver" type [00:07:18] situation.

Was there-- [00:07:19] When did [00:07:20] you discover [00:07:21] the other parts [00:07:22] of New [00:07:23] York City?[00:07:24]

Tom Teicher: You know, [00:07:25] it's interesting. [00:07:26] Combination [00:07:27] of [00:07:28] circumstances and I guess my [00:07:29] personal interests. [00:07:30] I got a [00:07:31] very good look [00:07:32] at the worlds of both [00:07:33] the haves [00:07:34] and the [00:07:35] have-nots. [00:07:36] Even when we [00:07:37] were living in the [00:07:38] suburbs, I [00:07:39] still had lots of [00:07:40] family in the [00:07:41] city. [00:07:42] My [00:07:43] dad worked [00:07:44] in [00:07:45] Chelsea, which at [00:07:46] that time was [00:07:47] kind of a, [00:07:48] [00:07:49] a lower [00:07:50] income [00:07:51] working class Puerto Rican [00:07:52] neighborhood.[00:07:53] [00:07:54]

Uh, [00:07:55] even, you know, even [00:07:56] something as [00:07:57] simple as [00:07:58] taking the train [00:07:59] from New Rochelle [00:08:00] to Grand Central [00:08:01] Station, [00:08:02] there was that one [00:08:03] stop at [00:08:04] 125th [00:08:05] Street, [00:08:06] Spanish Harlem, [00:08:07] and you [00:08:08] just by looking [00:08:09] out the window, [00:08:10] you got a good [00:08:11] look at that [00:08:12] other world. [00:08:13] And I, I [00:08:14] just found [00:08:15] that it, it was, [00:08:16] it was [00:08:17] fascinating. It was [00:08:18] intriguing just [00:08:19] seeing those other [00:08:20] worlds.

I, I [00:08:21] also, the [00:08:22] teenage years, [00:08:23] [00:08:24] uh, my parents sent [00:08:25] my brothers and [00:08:26] me to a [00:08:27] a, a [00:08:28] prep school in the [00:08:29] Bronx. Uh, [00:08:30] and [00:08:31] [00:08:32] so I was in the [00:08:33] city every day. [00:08:34] It was a, an [00:08:35] upper crust [00:08:36] neighborhood in the [00:08:37] Bronx. Most [00:08:38] people didn't realize that there [00:08:39] were such things.[00:08:40]

Bruce Anthony: Me, neither did [00:08:41] I.

Tom Teicher: right. [00:08:42] But [00:08:43] still being in [00:08:44] the city, getting [00:08:45] a, a feel [00:08:46] for it, seeing all [00:08:47] kinds of people [00:08:48] was [00:08:49] fascinating and, [00:08:50] [00:08:51] frankly, that [00:08:52] provided the impetus [00:08:53] for my own [00:08:54] sense of [00:08:55] purpose.

[00:08:56] When you do grow [00:08:57] up in a way [00:08:58] where [00:08:59] you feel like you have [00:09:00] choices, [00:09:01] you don't [00:09:02] have to focus [00:09:03] simply on, [00:09:04] what do I [00:09:05] do to get [00:09:06] by? You have [00:09:07] choices. You can [00:09:08] look to make lots of money, [00:09:09] and that's fine. [00:09:10] For whatever [00:09:11] reason, I just wasn't [00:09:12] particularly [00:09:13] materialistic, [00:09:14] and I was much [00:09:15] more interested in [00:09:16] seeing [00:09:17] whether I could put [00:09:18] in my two [00:09:19] cents to help [00:09:20] ensure [00:09:21] that [00:09:22] everyone has a [00:09:23] decent chance [00:09:24] at, uh, living a [00:09:25] good life, and that [00:09:26] became kind of the [00:09:27] focus of the [00:09:28] development of [00:09:29] my career.[00:09:30]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, so that [00:09:31] was gonna lead me right [00:09:32] into my second [00:09:33] question. A-and that it [00:09:34] seems like that [00:09:35] curiosity of [00:09:36] people, [00:09:37] especially when [00:09:38] you're, you're [00:09:39] taking that train or you're [00:09:40] going to prep [00:09:41] school, [00:09:42] was [00:09:43] really piqued [00:09:44] and, and it seems [00:09:45] like that's [00:09:46] what points you [00:09:47] into the career [00:09:48] of [00:09:49] [00:09:50] working with people that [00:09:51] most people [00:09:52] would rather not [00:09:53] think about, whether it [00:09:54] being those people [00:09:55] that were [00:09:56] incarcerated and coming out [00:09:57] and [00:09:58] those people that are [00:09:59] unhoused.

Would you, would [00:10:00] you say like, [00:10:01] "Okay, [00:10:02] this, this [00:10:03] curiosity definitely [00:10:04] pushed me in that [00:10:05] direction"? And if it [00:10:06] did, [00:10:07] what were the [00:10:08] steps to get [00:10:09] to doing that [00:10:10] type of work?[00:10:11]

Tom Teicher: Well, [00:10:12]

Housing inspections to juvenile jail: seeing the system fail 🏚🔒📋

Tom Teicher: it's [00:10:13] interesting. My [00:10:14] [00:10:15] first, uh, [00:10:16] job, it [00:10:17] was a volunteer [00:10:18] job. [00:10:19] A- and again, [00:10:20] it was just that I [00:10:21] was [00:10:22] [00:10:23] [00:10:24] fascinated And I guess [00:10:25] concerned as a [00:10:26] citizen [00:10:27] by the [00:10:28] circumstances of [00:10:29] folks who, um, [00:10:30] [00:10:31] where [00:10:32] life [00:10:33] did not put them in a good [00:10:34] place. I took a [00:10:35] volunteer job [00:10:36] working... I, [00:10:37] I think I was... [00:10:38] I don't know, maybe it [00:10:39] was a f- [00:10:40] freshman year [00:10:41] in high school.

[00:10:42] Maybe it was a summer [00:10:43] job that [00:10:44] complemented a, [00:10:45] um, a paid [00:10:46] job that I had. So a [00:10:47] couple of times a week, [00:10:48] I would go into the city [00:10:49] and [00:10:50] work for at [00:10:51] least what was then called [00:10:52] the city's [00:10:53] Housing and Development [00:10:54] Administration. [00:10:55] And this [00:10:56] particular [00:10:57] department [00:10:58] was the [00:10:59] so-called Receivership [00:11:00] Unit, [00:11:01] which meant that they [00:11:02] were [00:11:03] responsible [00:11:04] for [00:11:05] overseeing apartments in the [00:11:06] city [00:11:07] where, due to the [00:11:08] conditions of [00:11:09] the [00:11:10] apartment [00:11:11] or because the [00:11:12] owner wasn't paying their [00:11:13] taxes, [00:11:14] [00:11:15] that, [00:11:16] uh, the [00:11:17] city might have to look [00:11:18] to, uh, [00:11:19] take over or [00:11:20] assume control over [00:11:21] those units.

[00:11:22] And so [00:11:23] I worked as a [00:11:24] volunteer to [00:11:25] help, [00:11:26] uh, review [00:11:27] the conditions of [00:11:28] these units, and, [00:11:29] [00:11:30] and that gave me [00:11:31] my, [00:11:32] certainly my most [00:11:33] in-depth, [00:11:34] [00:11:35] look [00:11:36] at [00:11:37] people who, [00:11:38] uh, whose [00:11:39] conditions are really [00:11:40] awful. [00:11:41] And you walk into [00:11:42] a building, it [00:11:43] acquainted me with [00:11:44] the, [00:11:45] [00:11:46] the, the smell [00:11:47] of [00:11:48] urine and [00:11:49] alcohol. I-- [00:11:50] We didn't [00:11:51] have that experience in the [00:11:52] suburbs.

[00:11:53] And, [00:11:54] and [00:11:55] so it was, it was [00:11:56] kind of [00:11:57] eye-opening. You know, at, [00:11:58] at the end of the [00:11:59] day, it was just [00:12:00] seeing that, all [00:12:01] right, I'm [00:12:02] lucky enough to be in a [00:12:03] position where [00:12:04] I can maybe [00:12:05] contribute to [00:12:06] giving everybody a, [00:12:07] a fair shake. [00:12:08] The, [00:12:09] the [00:12:10] the path to [00:12:11] get there was not [00:12:12] a clear-cut [00:12:13] one. [00:12:14] [00:12:15] The [00:12:16] decision I made, whether [00:12:17] it was the right one or [00:12:18] not, [00:12:19] was to attend law [00:12:20] school after [00:12:21] college.[00:12:22] [00:12:23]

I [00:12:24] I'd gone [00:12:25] to college [00:12:26] at a small liberal [00:12:27] arts school in Ohio. [00:12:28] I went to law [00:12:29] school down South. [00:12:30] It's a good way to [00:12:31] see America. [00:12:32] You know [00:12:33] uh, I had never really [00:12:34] crossed the Hudson River [00:12:35] to see what else was out [00:12:36] there, so that was, [00:12:37] that was a good [00:12:38] education. Then I [00:12:39] came back [00:12:40] to New York, took an [00:12:41] apartment [00:12:42] on [00:12:43] the Upper West [00:12:44] Side at a time when it [00:12:45] was still [00:12:46] affordable.

[00:12:47] And, [00:12:48] [00:12:49] uh, I took a couple [00:12:50] of jobs working in the [00:12:51] criminal [00:12:52] and juvenile [00:12:53] justice system. [00:12:54] And [00:12:55] [00:12:56] and that was [00:12:57] useful in, in its [00:12:58] own way too, [00:12:59] particularly the second [00:13:00] job. [00:13:01] I worked as [00:13:02] the [00:13:03] ombudsman, the [00:13:04] advocate for the kids [00:13:05] locking, locked up [00:13:06] in our [00:13:07] juvenile jail [00:13:08] in, in the South [00:13:09] Bronx. It was a place called [00:13:10] Spofford Juvenile [00:13:11] Center.

It doesn't exist [00:13:12] anymore. [00:13:13] [00:13:14] But it was [00:13:15] it [00:13:16] was an interesting [00:13:17] experience. [00:13:18] Uh, the job [00:13:19] itself- [00:13:20] [00:13:21] [00:13:22] was neither here nor [00:13:23] there. But [00:13:24] sitting down with these [00:13:25] kids [00:13:26] and hearing their [00:13:27] stories [00:13:28] was, was [00:13:29] totally [00:13:30] fascinating. [00:13:31] And, [00:13:32] the [00:13:33] one big takeaway I [00:13:34] had from that [00:13:35] experience was [00:13:36] the, the tragedy [00:13:37] for so many of these [00:13:38] kids.

And these kids were [00:13:39] 13, 14, [00:13:40] 15 years [00:13:41] old. In [00:13:42] New York State, [00:13:43] [00:13:44] uh, you became an [00:13:45] adult for [00:13:46] criminal [00:13:47] purposes at 16, [00:13:48] not 18.[00:13:49]

So these kids, [00:13:50] this?

is in the [00:13:51] late '70s.[00:13:52]

Bruce Anthony: Okay.[00:13:53]

Tom Teicher: It's a long time [00:13:54] ago. That's why I've [00:13:55] got all this white hair. [00:13:56] [00:13:57] The-- [00:13:58] [00:13:59] And [00:14:00] and there was a [00:14:01] theme I heard over [00:14:02] and over and [00:14:03] over again in [00:14:04] listening to these [00:14:05] kids, [00:14:06] which was the [00:14:07] mistake that the [00:14:08] system had made [00:14:09] was [00:14:10] that they would [00:14:11] [00:14:12] start off by doing [00:14:13] something that got [00:14:14] them in trouble, [00:14:15] and [00:14:16] the [00:14:17] system's responsive-- [00:14:18] response was [00:14:19] [00:14:20] insufficient.

Maybe a, a [00:14:21] little tap on the [00:14:22] hand, [00:14:23] but not enough to get [00:14:24] their attention. [00:14:25] And [00:14:26] so they would go [00:14:27] out and do stuff [00:14:28] again and do [00:14:29] stuff again, and then it [00:14:30] becomes habitual. And [00:14:31] then one day they start [00:14:32] doing something really [00:14:33] serious, and [00:14:34] everybody starts throwing the book [00:14:35] at them. And [00:14:36] at that point, it's, it's a [00:14:37] big problem.[00:14:38]

And the [00:14:39] point simply being [00:14:40] that the [00:14:41] system would have done them a [00:14:42] favor [00:14:43] had they [00:14:44] given them a little bit of [00:14:45] tough love early on. [00:14:46] Nothing [00:14:47] disproportionate, [00:14:48] nothing crazy, [00:14:49] but just [00:14:50] something to get [00:14:51] their attention. [00:14:52] And nobody had [00:14:53] early on, and it [00:14:54] was really, [00:14:55] It didn't really do them any [00:14:56] favors. So [00:14:57] anyway, it was, it was an [00:14:58] interesting experience [00:14:59]

Tough love, poverty, and why so much crime tracks circumstance 👊💸⚖

Bruce Anthony: Uh, give me an [00:15:00] example. [00:15:01] Uh, give me an [00:15:02] example of, [00:15:03] let's [00:15:04] say that [00:15:05] a [00:15:06] young [00:15:07] man, 13 [00:15:08] years old in the [00:15:09] South Bronx in [00:15:10] [00:15:11] 1977, [00:15:12] uh, [00:15:13] [00:15:14] stole [00:15:15] food [00:15:16] from the bodega.[00:15:17]

Tom Teicher: Mm-hmm.[00:15:18]

Bruce Anthony: What [00:15:19] was the [00:15:20] punishment [00:15:21] and what did you, [00:15:22] what did you [00:15:23] sug- what would you [00:15:24] suggest should [00:15:25] be the [00:15:26] punishment to [00:15:27] kind of get [00:15:28] their [00:15:29] [00:15:30] attention?

Tom Teicher: I would [00:15:31] say [00:15:32] the, uh, [00:15:33] the punishment [00:15:34] was [00:15:35] mostly, uh, [00:15:36] somebody, uh, waving [00:15:37] a finger at them [00:15:38] and [00:15:39] saying, "We're putting you, [00:15:40] you know, [00:15:41] on some [00:15:42] kind of [00:15:43] probationary status," [00:15:44] uh, with [00:15:45] no [00:15:46] apparent [00:15:47] consequence at the end of [00:15:48] that. [00:15:49] Just don't do [00:15:50] that again. [00:15:51] [00:15:52] The [00:15:53] [00:15:54] appropriate [00:15:55] response might [00:15:56] have been... [00:15:57] wouldn't necessarily [00:15:58] require a [00:15:59] confinement.

It [00:16:00] could be some [00:16:01] kind of [00:16:02] community [00:16:03] service, [00:16:04] something [00:16:05] that [00:16:06] let them know [00:16:07] that, "All right, [00:16:08] [00:16:09] here are some people whose [00:16:10] lives you have [00:16:11] impacted, [00:16:12] and it [00:16:13] was wrong, [00:16:14] and maybe you should get a [00:16:15] close-up look at what it [00:16:16] is that you did and think [00:16:17] about it. [00:16:18] And in any case, [00:16:19] we're gonna take some of your [00:16:20] time [00:16:21] to make you do [00:16:22] something and make you [00:16:23] think about this [00:16:24] and [00:16:25] give you [00:16:26] pause and, and the like." [00:16:27] [00:16:28] So [00:16:29] something a-along those lines. [00:16:30] It doesn't have to be [00:16:31] drastic, 'cause by the [00:16:32] time the system [00:16:33] does respond, [00:16:34] then they're locked [00:16:35] up, and then they're [00:16:36] developing new habits, [00:16:37] and then [00:16:38] they're in a [00:16:39] prison environment [00:16:40] which has [00:16:41] its own [00:16:42] dysfunctionality to it.

Bruce Anthony: [00:16:43] Yeah. We're, we're [00:16:44] gonna get to that. [00:16:45] Uh, I'm [00:16:46] curious, [00:16:47] uh, to know your [00:16:48] perspective as [00:16:49] somebody who was on the [00:16:50] front lines [00:16:51] [00:16:52] of doing [00:16:53] the housing thing, where [00:16:54] you're going in and [00:16:55] observing these [00:16:56] houses, and then [00:16:57] later being an [00:16:58] advocate for [00:16:59] these, [00:17:00] these youth that are [00:17:01] being, uh, [00:17:02] arrested, [00:17:03] and, [00:17:04] and charged [00:17:05] for various [00:17:06] crimes. [00:17:07] [00:17:08] Could there have [00:17:09] been, [00:17:10] even [00:17:11] before a [00:17:12] punishment, [00:17:13] something that we [00:17:14] could have done so [00:17:15] that they wouldn't commit the [00:17:16] crimes in the first [00:17:17] place? What I'm [00:17:18] a- asking is, are [00:17:19] a lot of these [00:17:20] crimes that [00:17:21] these youth were [00:17:22] being caught, [00:17:23] was [00:17:24] it a crime of [00:17:25] ju- just bad [00:17:26] kids and committed crime, [00:17:27] or was it a [00:17:28] crime because they [00:17:29] had nothing [00:17:30] and they [00:17:31] were trying to get [00:17:32] something?

Whether that [00:17:33] was they were hungry [00:17:34] because there was no food at [00:17:35] home and they're [00:17:36] stealing food [00:17:37] in order to eat. I- [00:17:38] I- [00:17:39] Is there a connection [00:17:40] there between [00:17:41] the environment [00:17:42] that they grew up [00:17:43] in, uh, the [00:17:44] lack of [00:17:45] opportunity, uh, [00:17:46] that they might have, [00:17:47] or [00:17:48] straight up [00:17:49] finances, [00:17:50] and then [00:17:51] crime being an [00:17:52] option?[00:17:53]

Tom Teicher: Right. [00:17:54] Well, [00:17:55] the [00:17:56] [00:17:57] i-i-in my [00:17:58] view, uh, [00:17:59] there is a sort of a [00:18:00] broader [00:18:01] systemic failure. [00:18:02] Kids are kids. [00:18:03] You know, I was [00:18:04] no better or worse than [00:18:05] a-any of those [00:18:06] kids were. [00:18:07] [00:18:08] But I had [00:18:09] choices. I had [00:18:10] people to [00:18:11] encourage me when I needed [00:18:12] encouragement [00:18:13] people who could [00:18:14] give me a kick in the butt [00:18:15] as [00:18:16] [00:18:17] needed. These kids grew [00:18:18] up on a, on a very [00:18:19] difficult [00:18:20] [00:18:21] circumstances. But it's, in a [00:18:22] sense, it's a much broader [00:18:23] issue 'cause [00:18:24] it applies [00:18:25] to [00:18:26] everyone. [00:18:27] In, in [00:18:28] my view, [00:18:29] there [00:18:30] is a, [00:18:31] an [00:18:32] obligation that [00:18:33] we have as a [00:18:34] society [00:18:35] [00:18:36] to [00:18:37] provide a, [00:18:38] an economic [00:18:39] foundation [00:18:40] for [00:18:41] everyone. [00:18:42] [00:18:43] And that [00:18:44] provides [00:18:45] both [00:18:46] the [00:18:47] foundation to put [00:18:48] food on the table, [00:18:49] a roof over your [00:18:50] head, [00:18:51] healthcare, [00:18:52] et cetera, et cetera.[00:18:53]

It provides [00:18:54] you [00:18:55] theoretically an opportunity [00:18:56] to earn your way [00:18:57] in, in this [00:18:58] world [00:18:59] and develop the [00:19:00] skills [00:19:01] that you need. [00:19:02] [00:19:03] [00:19:04] [00:19:05] We don't have that. [00:19:06] We don't have a [00:19:07] system. We have a [00:19:08] lot of [00:19:09] fragments, and, [00:19:10] and [00:19:11] that means what we [00:19:12] have as a so-called [00:19:13] safety net [00:19:14] is [00:19:15] both ineffective [00:19:16] and inefficient, [00:19:17] and it, and it just, [00:19:18] it just [00:19:19] doesn't work very well.[00:19:20]

And it [00:19:21] even leads to [00:19:22] the sense of [00:19:23] [00:19:24] possibilities. I think, [00:19:25] I think [00:19:26] one's [00:19:27] attitude [00:19:28] is so much [00:19:29] a part of being [00:19:30] successful in [00:19:31] life. If [00:19:32] you think there [00:19:33] is a chance, [00:19:34] if you see [00:19:35] there is [00:19:36] there are [00:19:37] doors that could be [00:19:38] open, [00:19:39] I [00:19:40] think you're gonna live your [00:19:41] life very [00:19:42] differently than if you're [00:19:43] saying, "Well, look, [00:19:44] you [00:19:45] know, there really aren't any [00:19:46] doors open, [00:19:47] and I'm gonna have to take [00:19:48] shortcuts."

[00:19:49] Uh, w-we [00:19:50] all have to be [00:19:51] accountable for what we do at the end [00:19:52] of the day. [00:19:53] But [00:19:54] there's [00:19:55] there's a big [00:19:56] difference [00:19:57] between living [00:19:58] your life with a [00:19:59] sense that, all [00:20:00] right, there is [00:20:01] stability. [00:20:02] We [00:20:03] may not be rich or [00:20:04] anything, but there [00:20:05] are opportunities, [00:20:06] there is stability. [00:20:07] I can move forward with [00:20:08] my life. [00:20:09] As opposed to [00:20:10] me and my family, [00:20:11] we're just trying to, [00:20:12] to scrape by, and if we [00:20:13] have to take [00:20:14] shortcuts, uh, [00:20:15] so be [00:20:16] it.

So I [00:20:17] think [00:20:18] circumstances [00:20:19] and the way the [00:20:20] system [00:20:21] deals with it, and I think [00:20:22] the system [00:20:23] ideally [00:20:24] should [00:20:25] be one [00:20:26] based on [00:20:27] a [00:20:28] foundation [00:20:29] for everyone, [00:20:30] regardless of what their economic [00:20:31] circumstances are. I [00:20:32] think, I [00:20:33] think [00:20:34] targeting [00:20:35] it towards [00:20:36] lower income [00:20:37] people is, [00:20:38] is a more [00:20:39] bureaucratic [00:20:40] and not [00:20:41] an ideal approach.[00:20:42]

I would prefer [00:20:43] there be a solid [00:20:44] foundation for [00:20:45] everyone and enough [00:20:46] of a progressive [00:20:47] tax system to pay for [00:20:48] it.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

​

Bruce Anthony: [00:20:49] [00:20:50] [00:20:51] [00:20:52] [00:20:53] [00:20:54] [00:20:55] [00:20:56] Going back [00:20:57] to [00:20:58] your work with, [00:20:59] uh, [00:21:00] [00:21:01] prisoners, what did [00:21:02] you learn about [00:21:03] reentry that somebody who's [00:21:04] never been near [00:21:05] that system just [00:21:06] doesn't get? [00:21:07] And [00:21:08] also, [00:21:09] what's the part everybody [00:21:10] assumes is [00:21:11] the hard part, [00:21:12] and [00:21:13] what's the part that's [00:21:14] actually hard [00:21:15] that nobody even [00:21:16] talks about?[00:21:17]

Tom Teicher: Well, [00:21:18] all right, let's [00:21:19] start. [00:21:20] Reentry [00:21:21] starts while they're still [00:21:22] locked up. The [00:21:23] transition process [00:21:24] starts the [00:21:25] day they get into [00:21:26] prison, [00:21:27] and that provides [00:21:28] [00:21:29] [00:21:30] responsibilities for both. [00:21:31] The system has [00:21:32] a [00:21:33] responsibility, and [00:21:34] the inmate has a [00:21:35] responsibility. It's not [00:21:36] one or the other. [00:21:37] There need to [00:21:38] be [00:21:39] opportunities [00:21:40] for someone [00:21:41] to [00:21:42] address the [00:21:43] issues that may have been [00:21:44] relevant to getting [00:21:45] in [00:21:46] trouble.

Some of them could [00:21:47] be therapeutic [00:21:48] issues. Depends on what [00:21:49] nature of the crime is. [00:21:50] There needs [00:21:51] to be opportunities [00:21:52] perhaps to [00:21:53] develop skills [00:21:54] so that when they come [00:21:55] out, if [00:21:56] that is,

Why reentry starts the day you enter prison, and resilience 🔓🥊💪

Tom Teicher: uh, [00:21:57] an issue, that they can [00:21:58] go out, get [00:21:59] a job, [00:22:00] be productive [00:22:01] citizens and, and [00:22:02] all that. [00:22:03] [00:22:04] [00:22:05] [00:22:06] [00:22:07] There-

[00:22:08] There needs to [00:22:09] be a [00:22:10] practical [00:22:11] sense that [00:22:12] is [00:22:13] taught [00:22:14] to people. [00:22:15] See, the, [00:22:16] the most important [00:22:17] skill [00:22:18] from my [00:22:19] experience, the most [00:22:20] important [00:22:21] skill [00:22:22] that somebody needs to [00:22:23] learn while [00:22:24] they are in [00:22:25] prison, and it's [00:22:26] partly a function [00:22:27] of their own mindset [00:22:28] and partly of [00:22:29] what the system [00:22:30] teaches them. [00:22:31] Most important thing is [00:22:32] resilience [00:22:33] [00:22:34] [00:22:35] The-- a lot of [00:22:36] guys come out of [00:22:37] prison [00:22:38] with a [00:22:39] plan.

That's [00:22:40] wonderful. They've got a [00:22:41] plan. [00:22:42] But [00:22:43] they have forgotten [00:22:44] the old [00:22:45] Mike [00:22:46] Tyson line. [00:22:47] You know, everyone's [00:22:48] got a plan till they [00:22:49] get punched in the [00:22:50] face. [00:22:51] And they've got to [00:22:52] realize [00:22:53] that that's how-- [00:22:54] you know, the way [00:22:55] life works [00:22:56] is things [00:22:57] very rarely go [00:22:58] according to plan. [00:22:59] [00:23:00] And so what one [00:23:01] of the most [00:23:02] heartbreaking [00:23:03] failures when I [00:23:04] would see these folks on [00:23:05] the outside and [00:23:06] the, [00:23:07] the [00:23:08] organization that I ran, [00:23:09] uh, [00:23:10] operated-- We did some of our [00:23:11] work in the prisons, [00:23:12] working with inmates while they [00:23:13] were still locked up, [00:23:14] but we also [00:23:15] ran an [00:23:16] eighteen-bed transitional [00:23:17] housing program.[00:23:18]

And [00:23:19] one of the most [00:23:20] heartbreaking things is [00:23:21] somebody who comes out [00:23:22] with a very [00:23:23] positive attitude. They're [00:23:24] really motivated. [00:23:25] They've got a plan, [00:23:26] but [00:23:27] they are not [00:23:28] positioned to deal [00:23:29] with the bumps in [00:23:30] the road. And then [00:23:31] they hit a bump in the [00:23:32] road, and there's a, a [00:23:33] problem. What I [00:23:34] used to tell guys while they [00:23:35] were locked up [00:23:36] is I would say, [00:23:37] "Try to think [00:23:38] about worst-case [00:23:39] scenarios.

Why don't [00:23:40] you [00:23:41] assume that the guy who [00:23:42] promised to pick you [00:23:43] up at the prison gate the [00:23:44] day you're released [00:23:45] doesn't show up? [00:23:46] What are you gonna [00:23:47] do? Why don't [00:23:48] you [00:23:49] assume that the guy who [00:23:50] promised you a job when [00:23:51] you get released [00:23:52] says, 'Ah, [00:23:53] sorry, times are tight. [00:23:54] I can't help you out.' [00:23:55] Try to [00:23:56] think through the [00:23:57] scenarios [00:23:58] that will enable you to [00:23:59] say, 'All right, I'll come up with [00:24:00] a plan B and a [00:24:01] plan C, [00:24:02] but I'm gonna find a [00:24:03] way to move forward and [00:24:04] move forward [00:24:05] in [00:24:06] an effective [00:24:07] way.'"

You [00:24:08] know, and then when they, [00:24:09] when they get [00:24:10] out, [00:24:11] [00:24:12] I

Support systems, stereotypes, and the quiet pull back to prison 🤝🔄🔒

Tom Teicher: think the [00:24:13] most important thing, and [00:24:14] this is-- Bruce, [00:24:15] this is a really [00:24:16] corny expression, [00:24:17] but I think the [00:24:18] most important thing [00:24:19] is a support [00:24:20] system. [00:24:21] And it's something [00:24:22] we all need. We [00:24:23] just don't necessarily [00:24:24] think of it this way. [00:24:25] You come [00:24:26] out, you're gonna hit bumps [00:24:27] in the road.

You need [00:24:28] encouragement. You [00:24:29] need the kick in the butt [00:24:30] o-occasionally. [00:24:31] And yeah, you need a [00:24:32] plan. Y-and, and, [00:24:33] and you, [00:24:34] you, you [00:24:35] need to [00:24:36] do the things to [00:24:37] help you move, [00:24:38] move [00:24:39] forward. But, [00:24:40] uh, you know, we don't, [00:24:41] we don't [00:24:42] get by in life on [00:24:43] our own. [00:24:44] And I [00:24:45] think having that [00:24:46] support system, [00:24:47] family, [00:24:48] friends, [00:24:49] people in church, [00:24:50] whatever it is, people that you [00:24:51] meet [00:24:52] to, to be there [00:24:53] with you, I [00:24:54] think, I think [00:24:55] makes a really [00:24:56] [00:24:57] big difference.[00:24:58]

I think [00:24:59] the [00:25:00] m-biggest mistake that [00:25:01] people make [00:25:02] when they see [00:25:03] somebody who's just [00:25:04] gotten out of prison [00:25:05] is [00:25:06] twofold, [00:25:07] and it's at both [00:25:08] ends. One [00:25:09] is they assume [00:25:10] once a crook, always a [00:25:11] crook. [00:25:12] That's a [00:25:13] mistake. The [00:25:14] other mistake they [00:25:15] make is [00:25:16] the more [00:25:17] sympathetic. [00:25:18] You know, [00:25:19] the guy seems [00:25:20] motivated [00:25:21] [00:25:22] You know, it [00:25:23] sounded like he's gonna be [00:25:24] just fine.[00:25:25]

The reality is [00:25:26] everybody talks a good [00:25:27] game. [00:25:28] And [00:25:29] my [00:25:30] experience [00:25:31] was I got [00:25:32] out of the prediction [00:25:33] base, out of the [00:25:34] prediction game very, [00:25:35] very early. [00:25:36] I'm not smart enough to [00:25:37] figure out [00:25:38] whether the guy is gonna [00:25:39] stay on course [00:25:40] or he's gonna go [00:25:41] off course. [00:25:42] I think we [00:25:43] need to [00:25:44] provide opportunities for [00:25:45] them to, [00:25:46] to move forward in, in [00:25:47] various ways[00:25:48]

Bruce Anthony: That's so interesting [00:25:49] that you said it starts in [00:25:50] prison because [00:25:51] when I'm thinking about it, [00:25:52] [00:25:53] what prison [00:25:54] is like, what [00:25:55] I've heard, 'cause I've never [00:25:56] been, and what [00:25:57] you're expressing to [00:25:58] me when they get [00:25:59] out, [00:26:00] everything in, in prison [00:26:01] is, is, [00:26:02] is [00:26:03] formulaic. Like, you [00:26:04] know when you're [00:26:05] gonna be eating, you know [00:26:06] when you need to be in your cell, [00:26:07] you know when y- it's, it's programmed, right?

The only thing that you have to[00:26:08] [00:26:09] [00:26:10]

[00:26:11] worry about [00:26:12] is [00:26:13] violence, right? [00:26:14] So I'm [00:26:15] assuming that when [00:26:16] they get back [00:26:17] out [00:26:18] that, yeah, [00:26:19] they can pick up [00:26:20] on [00:26:21] dangerous [00:26:22] situations because that [00:26:23] hasn't changed, but what [00:26:24] has changed [00:26:25] is the [00:26:26] [00:26:27] unpredictability of just [00:26:28] life, because [00:26:29] life is so [00:26:30] predictable in prison. That's [00:26:31] something I just [00:26:32] never thought about. [00:26:33] But yeah, if you spent [00:26:34] [00:26:35] three, four, [00:26:36] five, [00:26:37] 10, [00:26:38] 20, 25 [00:26:39] years in prison, [00:26:40] you've lived a certain way, [00:26:41] it would be hard to [00:26:42] just [00:26:43] adjust back to [00:26:44] the [00:26:45] uncertainty of life.

So [00:26:46] that's

Tom Teicher: I think [00:26:47] you're right on the money, [00:26:48] and that is why [00:26:49] another [00:26:50] tragedy [00:26:51] is you often [00:26:52] see people come [00:26:53] out of prison [00:26:54] and [00:26:55] then after a while [00:26:56] they sabotage [00:26:57] themselves. They [00:26:58] miss the [00:26:59] certainty of prison, the [00:27:00] stability of [00:27:01] prison. [00:27:02] Maybe [00:27:03] there are the, the [00:27:04] physical risks, but [00:27:05] by and large, they know the [00:27:06] routine.

They know how to be [00:27:07] safe. There's a [00:27:08] predictability to [00:27:09] life, and they come out [00:27:10] to this new world [00:27:11] and they're [00:27:12] sometimes, [00:27:13] depending on how long they've [00:27:14] been locked up, [00:27:15] they're not even [00:27:16] acquainted with the [00:27:17] technology and [00:27:18] various things [00:27:19] and, and [00:27:20] the [00:27:21] responsibilities that come with being [00:27:22] out, [00:27:23] and they will do something to [00:27:24] sabotage themselves [00:27:25] to find a way to [00:27:26] get themselves locked up [00:27:27] again.

Bruce Anthony: [00:27:28] Hmm.

Tom Teicher: a sad [00:27:29] story.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. Uh,

[00:27:30] you've

Working and still homeless: what just get a job totally misses 💼🏠❓

Bruce Anthony: also [00:27:31] spent about [00:27:32] 10 years working [00:27:33] with the unhoused [00:27:34] in Seattle. [00:27:35] Uh, when [00:27:36] somebody hits you with, [00:27:37] "Why can't they just [00:27:38] get a [00:27:39] job and get off their [00:27:40] butt?" [00:27:41] What [00:27:42] do these [00:27:43] people [00:27:44] actually miss [00:27:45] about [00:27:46] the [00:27:47] unhoused and their [00:27:48] [00:27:49] [00:27:50] [00:27:51] situations?

Tom Teicher: You [00:27:52] know, I, I think [00:27:53] there are a couple of [00:27:54] things. You know, [00:27:55] first there's the, [00:27:56] the [00:27:57] Robin Williams [00:27:58] line [00:27:59] that, you know, [00:28:00] everyone you [00:28:01] meet [00:28:02] is, is [00:28:03] fighting a battle [00:28:04] you know nothing [00:28:05] about. [00:28:06] So, [00:28:07] you know, [00:28:08] you, you just-- [00:28:09] it's [00:28:10] easy to draw [00:28:11] quick conclusions. [00:28:12] [00:28:13] [00:28:14] I [00:28:15] think [00:28:16] this is, this is [00:28:17] a, [00:28:18] a real [00:28:19] systemic [00:28:20] failure.[00:28:21] [00:28:22]

[00:28:23] And I, I [00:28:24] put the onus much [00:28:25] more on the [00:28:26] system than I do [00:28:27] on [00:28:28] failures of the [00:28:29] individual. People [00:28:30] don't wanna live on the street. There [00:28:31] are very few people who [00:28:32] wanna live on the [00:28:33] street. [00:28:34] And [00:28:35] I think the vast [00:28:36] majority of [00:28:37] people are [00:28:38] ready and prepared to [00:28:39] earn their way [00:28:40] to, [00:28:41] to have the roof over [00:28:42] their head.

[00:28:43] But [00:28:44] at the [00:28:45] different [00:28:46] circumstances that you're [00:28:47] dealing with. [00:28:48] Let's sort of [00:28:49] divide the, [00:28:50] the market here a little

[00:28:51] bit. [00:28:52] A lot of [00:28:53] people who are on [00:28:54] the street [00:28:55] are [00:28:56] employed. It's [00:28:57] just that [00:28:58] the income they [00:28:59] make from their [00:29:00] jobs is not [00:29:01] sufficient to [00:29:02] get housing. [00:29:03] [00:29:04] So that is a [00:29:05] failure of the system [00:29:06] because at least in [00:29:07] my view, [00:29:08] if somebody's putting [00:29:09] in a 40-hour [00:29:10] week, [00:29:11] they have [00:29:12] earned [00:29:13] the right to [00:29:14] have a roof over their [00:29:15] head.

They've done [00:29:16] their part. [00:29:17] Our failure [00:29:18] to provide [00:29:19] housing that is, uh, [00:29:20] affordable is [00:29:21] a failure on the system's [00:29:22] part. [00:29:23] [00:29:24] Then there are those [00:29:25] who [00:29:26] are [00:29:27] unemployed, looking for [00:29:28] work, have [00:29:29] not found work. [00:29:30] [00:29:31] Well, [00:29:32] to me, the [00:29:33] failure is [00:29:34] why [00:29:35] aren't we providing [00:29:36] the [00:29:37] opportunities to [00:29:38] secure jobs [00:29:39] that will enable [00:29:40] them to get the [00:29:41] housing?

[00:29:42] I [00:29:43] think [00:29:44] that, uh, if you go back to [00:29:45] the New Deal, the [00:29:46] WPA and the [00:29:47] like [00:29:48] the concept [00:29:49] of government as [00:29:50] employer of last [00:29:51] resort, I [00:29:52] think made [00:29:53] sense then. I [00:29:54] think it makes sense [00:29:55] now. [00:29:56] [00:29:57] Again, [00:29:58] it's about [00:29:59] opportunity. I think we [00:30:00] have an obligation as [00:30:01] a, as a [00:30:02] society. [00:30:03] Look at the other [00:30:04] end of the spectrum, [00:30:05] you have people with [00:30:06] various kinds of [00:30:07] disabilities, physical [00:30:08] disabilities, mental [00:30:09] disabilities.[00:30:10]

I think [00:30:11] we have an [00:30:12] obligation for people who are [00:30:13] unable to work [00:30:14] to, [00:30:15] [00:30:16] provide, [00:30:17] depending on the [00:30:18] circumstances, some cases it could be [00:30:19] permanent housing, [00:30:20] other cases it could [00:30:21] be a temporary [00:30:22] situation. It can [00:30:23] in-involve some kind [00:30:24] of drug or alcohol [00:30:25] [00:30:26] treatment that's [00:30:27] needed to get them [00:30:28] through a, [00:30:29] a particular, [00:30:30] uh, a [00:30:31] particular segment [00:30:32] here of, of [00:30:33] [00:30:34] Life.

[00:30:35] [00:30:36] So I think there aren't a [00:30:37] lot of people... [00:30:38] I, I guess the [00:30:39] bottom line is [00:30:40] this: depending on [00:30:41] people's [00:30:42] circumstances, [00:30:43] even people who are on a [00:30:44] middle ground [00:30:45] struggling with something, [00:30:46] I [00:30:47] think we have an [00:30:48] obligation to provide [00:30:49] some kind of [00:30:50] decent [00:30:51] [00:30:52] shelter, some kind of decent [00:30:53] [00:30:54] temporary arrangement. [00:30:55] Doesn't have to be [00:30:56] fancy, [00:30:57] but it's [00:30:58] something that is [00:30:59] civil, [00:31:00] provides a roof over [00:31:01] their head, [00:31:02] has a decency to [00:31:03] it, something [00:31:04] that will still provide an [00:31:05] impetus to [00:31:06] look for permanent [00:31:07] housing, something more [00:31:08] secure, something that may [00:31:09] be more private.

[00:31:10] And this-- And the temporary [00:31:11] housing def-- [00:31:12] one of the failures [00:31:13] of the, the transition to [00:31:14] temporary housing [00:31:15] system is [00:31:16] that it's gotta [00:31:17] be [00:31:18] more, more flexible, and [00:31:19] I think there are a lot of [00:31:20] steps being taken. [00:31:21] Different [00:31:22] people have [00:31:23] different needs. [00:31:24] For some people, [00:31:25] living in a [00:31:26] dormitory with, [00:31:27] with, [00:31:28] uh, with [00:31:29] a zillion people in [00:31:30] one room, [00:31:31] they can get by and they're [00:31:32] fine.

A [00:31:33] lot of people [00:31:34] need more space. They need [00:31:35] more privacy. [00:31:36] Uh, they're [00:31:37] concerned about their [00:31:38] security. [00:31:39] [00:31:40] There [00:31:41] are some people who [00:31:42] need their pet. [00:31:43] There are some [00:31:44] people who are [00:31:45] couples. There are just [00:31:46] different, [00:31:47] different [00:31:48] circumstances, and we have to be [00:31:49] able to have [00:31:50] those different [00:31:51] situations. There should [00:31:52] be virtually [00:31:53] no excuse [00:31:54] for somebody [00:31:55] living on [00:31:56] the street, [00:31:57] frankly[00:31:58]

Bruce Anthony: How many-- [00:31:59] This

Homeless veterans prove it works, and a safety net in silos 🎖🧩📉

Bruce Anthony: is just, [00:32:00] this wasn't [00:32:01] in the, the [00:32:02] questions I get. This is just [00:32:03] something I just thought [00:32:04] of on, on the [00:32:05] spot. [00:32:06] Now I, [00:32:07] I've [00:32:08] worked a little [00:32:09] bit with the [00:32:10] unhoused and realized [00:32:11] there is a lot of [00:32:12] veterans [00:32:13] that [00:32:14] are unhoused. [00:32:15] Was that something that [00:32:16] you came [00:32:17] across, uh, in [00:32:18] your work? And [00:32:19] if... I, [00:32:20] I, know that they're [00:32:21] unhoused, but like [00:32:22] what, what do you think [00:32:23] would be the [00:32:24] percentages [00:32:25] of the [00:32:26] unhoused that [00:32:27] are [00:32:28] veterans?[00:32:29] [00:32:30]

Tom Teicher: You know, [00:32:31] I, I can't [00:32:32] estimate [00:32:33] a percentage of [00:32:34] that, [00:32:35] but oddly enough, [00:32:36] the [00:32:37] veterans have [00:32:38] proven to be [00:32:39] a [00:32:40] an almost case [00:32:41] study [00:32:42] of [00:32:43] how the [00:32:44] system can [00:32:45] work.

There [00:32:46] have been, there have [00:32:47] been [00:32:48] dedicated funds the [00:32:49] last number of [00:32:50] years [00:32:51] toward [00:32:52] veterans, [00:32:53] and so [00:32:54] actually [00:32:55] the percentage [00:32:56] of unhoused [00:32:57] veterans has [00:32:58] gone way [00:32:59] down.

Bruce Anthony: Oh, [00:33:00] good

Tom Teicher: The, [00:33:01] the, the [00:33:02] system has actually [00:33:03] provided housing [00:33:04] for veterans, and they [00:33:05] certainly deserve [00:33:06] it. [00:33:07] And, and [00:33:08] so they've done a good [00:33:09] job of getting [00:33:10] veterans off the street. [00:33:11] [00:33:12] Ensuring that [00:33:13] [00:33:14] non-veterans have those [00:33:15] opportunities, [00:33:16] when [00:33:17] you can see that [00:33:18] it works with [00:33:19] veterans, [00:33:20] again, at the [00:33:21] end of the day, it's [00:33:22] about will [00:33:23] rather than the [00:33:24] way.

[00:33:25] You know, [00:33:26] ultimately, [00:33:27] you know, to the [00:33:28] extent that [00:33:29] the private [00:33:30] market does [00:33:31] not provide [00:33:32] sufficient [00:33:33] housing, [00:33:34] then you need to [00:33:35] have subsidies [00:33:36] to [00:33:37] provide enough [00:33:38] affordable housing [00:33:39] and, and the like. [00:33:40] I mean, we have [00:33:41] a housing [00:33:42] supply problem in [00:33:43] this [00:33:44] country just in [00:33:45] general, [00:33:46] and this is [00:33:47] partly how it plays it [00:33:48] out.[00:33:49]

And then [00:33:50] there are situations, [00:33:51] for example, [00:33:52] where back in the [00:33:53] '80s they [00:33:54] emptied out a lot of [00:33:55] the [00:33:56] institutions [00:33:57] that [00:33:58] provided support [00:33:59] for people with [00:34:00] mental health and other [00:34:01] such problems, [00:34:02] and they ended up on [00:34:03] the street.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. [00:34:04] That happened here [00:34:05] in DC [00:34:06] when, uh, [00:34:07] around [00:34:08] 2002-- [00:34:09] no, 2002, [00:34:10] [00:34:11] 2003. [00:34:12] They just [00:34:13] up [00:34:14] those, uh, [00:34:15] [00:34:16] closed up those [00:34:17] buildings, and those [00:34:18] people went [00:34:19] right out to the [00:34:20] street.

Tom Teicher: The, you know, [00:34:21] the, the, the [00:34:22] theory was good. The theory [00:34:23] was rather [00:34:24] than being in an [00:34:25] institutional environment, [00:34:26] develop these [00:34:27] community-based settings, [00:34:28] [00:34:29] it would be more [00:34:30] civil, it involve [00:34:31] more support from [00:34:32] the community, a [00:34:33] win-win situation. [00:34:34] [00:34:35] The part they did [00:34:36] right was [00:34:37] closing down the [00:34:38] facilities. [00:34:39] The small [00:34:40] detail they left out [00:34:41] was developing the [00:34:42] [00:34:43] facilities, [00:34:44] and so [00:34:45] here we are

Bruce Anthony: [00:34:46] Yeah, poor [00:34:47] transition. You've spent a [00:34:48] lot [00:34:49] of [00:34:50] years [00:34:51] in these [00:34:52] systems. [00:34:53] When did [00:34:54] you-- [00:34:55] W- Uh, uh, I'm [00:34:56] sure it was throughout the [00:34:57] entire [00:34:58] process, but when did you [00:34:59] pinpoint it and [00:35:00] say, "Oh, this [00:35:01] isn't [00:35:02] one particular [00:35:03] problem that causes [00:35:04] all of this. [00:35:05] These are structural [00:35:06] is- uh, [00:35:07] issues in the [00:35:08] institutions that [00:35:09] result in [00:35:10] people ending [00:35:11] up in prison [00:35:12] or ending [00:35:13] out on the [00:35:14] [00:35:15] streets"?

Tom Teicher: You know, [00:35:16] I would say [00:35:17] the issues [00:35:18] around, uh, [00:35:19] uh, [00:35:20] offenders in [00:35:21] a sense was almost [00:35:22] its own category in a [00:35:23] way, because I think the [00:35:24] circumstances in some [00:35:25] way were, [00:35:26] were [00:35:27] unique. But [00:35:28] there are [00:35:29] just a [00:35:30] broad-based, the [00:35:31] broad-based [00:35:32] systemic [00:35:33] failure [00:35:34] in terms of [00:35:35] providing opportunities [00:35:36] for people, whether [00:35:37] they get in trouble or [00:35:38] not.

Just [00:35:39] a broad-based [00:35:40] failure of our [00:35:41] system to [00:35:42] provide an [00:35:43] economic [00:35:44] foundation, one [00:35:45] that is [00:35:46] as [00:35:47] unbureaucratic as [00:35:48] possible, [00:35:49] but one [00:35:50] that effectively [00:35:51] ensures [00:35:52] that people are [00:35:53] able to meet [00:35:54] their basic [00:35:55] needs, are [00:35:56] able to [00:35:57] prepare for [00:35:58] long run [00:35:59] opportunities and long [00:36:00] run needs, [00:36:01] including [00:36:02] healthcare. That's a [00:36:03] foundation [00:36:04] that particularly in [00:36:05] a wealthy [00:36:06] society, uh, [00:36:07] should come with the [00:36:08] territory.[00:36:09]

Uh, and again, I [00:36:10] think the failure [00:36:11] is that [00:36:12] the way the [00:36:13] programs we have in this [00:36:14] society have [00:36:15] developed, [00:36:16] whether [00:36:17] it's [00:36:18] food stamps [00:36:19] or [00:36:20] it's [00:36:21] Medicaid or it's Section [00:36:22] 8 housing or [00:36:23] what have you, [00:36:24] it's all [00:36:25] fragmented. [00:36:26] Each program [00:36:27] develops separately, [00:36:28] each with its own [00:36:29] eligibility [00:36:30] rules, [00:36:31] e-each, each [00:36:32] going in, in its [00:36:33] own silo.[00:36:34]

It's not [00:36:35] a system, [00:36:36] a-and this is not [00:36:37] rocket science. [00:36:38] I'm not that smart a [00:36:39] guy. It's [00:36:40] just something that [00:36:41] you can [00:36:42] observe and say [00:36:43] it is [00:36:44] both [00:36:45] inadequate and just [00:36:46] incredibly [00:36:47] [00:36:48] in-in-inefficient. [00:36:49] We need... [00:36:50] Even in a rich [00:36:51] society, we have limited [00:36:52] resources, [00:36:53] but if you put those [00:36:54] resources to good [00:36:55] use, there's a lot [00:36:56] more that, that you can [00:36:57] achieve[00:36:58]

Bruce Anthony: Uh, one last [00:36:59] question about the [00:37:00] unhoused because, [00:37:01] uh, I, [00:37:02] I find this [00:37:03] interesting with [00:37:04] people that I [00:37:05] talk to that [00:37:06] are-- were [00:37:07] unhoused or [00:37:08] currently unhoused. [00:37:09] Uh, [00:37:10] and some of them have [00:37:11] been [00:37:12] incarcerated. There [00:37:13] is almost [00:37:14] a [00:37:15] pipeline [00:37:16] to those people [00:37:17] that [00:37:18] fail, as you [00:37:19] say, that, uh, [00:37:20] didn't [00:37:21] plan [00:37:22] for the bumps in the [00:37:23] road of being, [00:37:24] uh, out [00:37:25] of prison who [00:37:26] end up unhoused.

[00:37:27] Maybe they don't get... [00:37:28] They don't [00:37:29] sabotage themselves and go [00:37:30] back. They end up h- [00:37:31] unhoused. And [00:37:32] how dangerous [00:37:33] it is [00:37:34] [00:37:35] living on the street [00:37:36] [00:37:37] and [00:37:38] living in [00:37:39] prison. I- are, are there [00:37:40] certain [00:37:41] parallels [00:37:42] to both of those [00:37:43] situations? Because it [00:37:44] seems like to me [00:37:45] that even though that [00:37:46] you're free, [00:37:47] [00:37:48] in [00:37:49] essence, w- you're not [00:37:50] in prison, that it's [00:37:51] still a prison [00:37:52] when you're-- when [00:37:53] you don't have a [00:37:54] [00:37:55] home

Tom Teicher: I [00:37:56] think that's a prison when you [00:37:57] don't have, have a [00:37:58] home. I think, [00:37:59] I mean, I really [00:38:00] hadn't thought about this [00:38:01] particular question. I [00:38:02] think the [00:38:03] commonality actually [00:38:04] between the, the, the [00:38:05] two [00:38:06] is that [00:38:07] both [00:38:08] need a sense [00:38:09] of [00:38:10] safety. Both [00:38:11] establish a sense [00:38:12] of [00:38:13] community. When a guy [00:38:14] is locked up in [00:38:15] prison, [00:38:16] you know, [00:38:17] if [00:38:18] he's a, uh, [00:38:19] if he's a, a, [00:38:20] a [00:38:21] small, thin [00:38:22] fellow [00:38:23] who is in physical [00:38:24] jeopardy of a [00:38:25] bully who may [00:38:26] take advantage of him [00:38:27] in really [00:38:28] unpleasant ways, [00:38:29] he's gonna [00:38:30] find, he's gonna [00:38:31] find somebody who's [00:38:32] gonna take care of him.[00:38:33]

They'll work [00:38:34] out whatever the arrangement [00:38:35] is, and [00:38:36] that's where the safety [00:38:37] is. Well, for [00:38:38] people who are on the [00:38:39] street [00:38:40] especially if [00:38:41] they're on the street for a [00:38:42] while, [00:38:43] they develop their [00:38:44] sense of [00:38:45] community. And, you [00:38:46] know, and after a [00:38:47] while, unless [00:38:48] you have something really [00:38:49] that's better to [00:38:50] offer, [00:38:51] [00:38:52] you know, if you're gonna [00:38:53] say, "Look, I'm gonna [00:38:54] put you in a [00:38:55] room with [00:38:56] 200 people [00:38:57] in, [00:38:58] in [00:38:59] double-deckers that are three feet [00:39:00] apart from each other," [00:39:01] they [00:39:02] may be happier [00:39:03] being out on the [00:39:04] street with a [00:39:05] few of their friends [00:39:06] who support [00:39:07] each other, take care of [00:39:08] each other, and the [00:39:09] like.

So [00:39:10] I think that [00:39:11] need, that [00:39:12] mutual support need [00:39:13] is, is to [00:39:14] me is sort of the [00:39:15] commonality.

Bruce Anthony: [00:39:16] That's pretty

The 28th Amendment explained: why the Constitution has to evolve 📜🔄🏛

Bruce Anthony: [00:39:17] cool. [00:39:18]

I wanna shift [00:39:19] now, [00:39:20] 'cause [00:39:21] you've been talking around the [00:39:22] country, [00:39:23] uh, about this [00:39:24] 28th [00:39:25] Amendment. Can you [00:39:26] break it down for [00:39:27] everybody, [00:39:28] uh, what this [00:39:29] idea [00:39:30] is? Break it down [00:39:31] like you're at a [00:39:32] barbecue and you're talking to [00:39:33] people. What [00:39:34] actually [00:39:35] changes and why [00:39:36] every 40 [00:39:37] years, which is what's your [00:39:38] suggestion?[00:39:39]

Tom Teicher: Okay. [00:39:40] [00:39:41] So we start [00:39:42] from the [00:39:43] beginning. [00:39:44] The [00:39:45] Constitution [00:39:46] is the, [00:39:47] the [00:39:48] foundation of [00:39:49] our [00:39:50] democracy. We don't [00:39:51] think about it a [00:39:52] lot. We kinda [00:39:53] take it as a given. [00:39:54] [00:39:55] But [00:39:56] it, it [00:39:57] provides the, the [00:39:58] framework. It provides [00:39:59] the the [00:40:00] governing [00:40:01] framework. [00:40:02] It provides our system [00:40:03] for electing public [00:40:04] officials. [00:40:05] It provides a set [00:40:06] of rights for us [00:40:07] as [00:40:08] individuals [00:40:09] that, um, [00:40:10] that we [00:40:11] find [00:40:12] precious.

Even [00:40:13] if we are [00:40:14] unpopular [00:40:15] people, we have [00:40:16] those rights. [00:40:17] [00:40:18] These things are really [00:40:19] fundamental to how we [00:40:20] live in a [00:40:21] democracy. [00:40:22] When the [00:40:23] founders [00:40:24] wrote [00:40:25] the Constitution, [00:40:26] this is back [00:40:27] in [00:40:28] 1787. That's a [00:40:29] long time ago. [00:40:30] [00:40:31] They realized [00:40:32] at that point it [00:40:33] was already [00:40:34] an [00:40:35] imperfect [00:40:36] document. [00:40:37] Um, [00:40:38] and they also [00:40:39] realized [00:40:40] that as [00:40:41] time went on, [00:40:42] it would [00:40:43] require changes, not [00:40:44] only those that they [00:40:45] perhaps could [00:40:46] anticipate, [00:40:47] say [00:40:48] around an issue like [00:40:49] slavery, [00:40:50] but a-around [00:40:51] issues that they couldn't [00:40:52] anticipate.

'Cause [00:40:53] over time you would find out [00:40:54] what is working, [00:40:55] what is not working in [00:40:56] terms of the [00:40:57] government, governmental [00:40:58] system you set up. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] The [00:41:01] reality is that [00:41:02] [00:41:03] circumstances [00:41:04] change, [00:41:05] possibilities [00:41:06] change, sometimes [00:41:07] our values [00:41:08] change, [00:41:09] and the Constitution [00:41:10] needs to be able to [00:41:11] evolve [00:41:12] to [00:41:13] [00:41:14] respond, to stay with the [00:41:15] times [00:41:16] and, and all [00:41:17] that.[00:41:18]

And [00:41:19] so the founders said, [00:41:20] "All right, [00:41:21] let's put a provision in the [00:41:22] Constitution [00:41:23] [00:41:24] that will allow us [00:41:25] to change [00:41:26] it." And it-- they [00:41:27] created Article [00:41:28] 5. [00:41:29] Article 5 [00:41:30] [00:41:31] establishes two ways [00:41:32] of changing the [00:41:33] Constitution [00:41:34] [00:41:35] Now, [00:41:36] one of [00:41:37] them, [00:41:38] and the only [00:41:39] one that's been [00:41:40] used, [00:41:41] says, "All right. [00:41:42] [00:41:43] Folks in Congress have a [00:41:44] particular idea, [00:41:45] [00:41:46] and if it [00:41:47] passes with [00:41:48] two-thirds support [00:41:49] of the [00:41:50] House and [00:41:51] two-thirds support of the [00:41:52] Senate, [00:41:53] and then it gets [00:41:54] ratified by three-quarters of [00:41:55] the states, we have [00:41:56] ourselves an amendment."[00:41:57]

The bar is pretty [00:41:58] high, [00:41:59] and that has a [00:42:00] lot to do with [00:42:01] why if you [00:42:02] take the [00:42:03] Constitution and [00:42:04] consider the 10 [00:42:05] amendments [00:42:06] that constitute the [00:42:07] Bill of Rights, [00:42:08] we've only had [00:42:09] 17 amendments [00:42:10] beyond that in [00:42:11] almost [00:42:12] 240 years. [00:42:13] That's not [00:42:14] much. [00:42:15] So you've got this [00:42:16] one method that [00:42:17] has created [00:42:18] only 17 [00:42:19] [00:42:20] amendments. But maybe the bar [00:42:21] should be high.

The runaway convention fear and why a full reset every 40 years ⚠🌀⏳

Tom Teicher: You [00:42:22] want the Constitution to [00:42:23] have a, a sense of, [00:42:24] of [00:42:25] permanence. [00:42:26] It's the other [00:42:27] part of Article [00:42:28] f- five [00:42:29] where they fell short of the [00:42:30] mark. [00:42:31] They said, [00:42:32] "Look, [00:42:33] we have to have a sec- a [00:42:34] second way of doing [00:42:35] this [00:42:36] because we can't [00:42:37] rely solely [00:42:38] on Congress [00:42:39] to initiate [00:42:40] amendments, [00:42:41] because there's [00:42:42] no way [00:42:43] Congress will initiate [00:42:44] any amendments that [00:42:45] might jeopardize [00:42:46] their own [00:42:47] prerogatives."

Let's [00:42:48] say, you [00:42:49] know, take term [00:42:50] limits. It's [00:42:51] unlikely you're gonna have [00:42:52] a, an amendment that's [00:42:53] gonna start with [00:42:54] somebody from Congress [00:42:55] initiating [00:42:56] congressional term limits. [00:42:57] So they [00:42:58] said, "Let's have [00:42:59] a system [00:43:00] that the states can [00:43:01] initiate it."[00:43:02]

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:43:03]

Tom Teicher: That's fine. [00:43:04] [00:43:05] But what was really [00:43:06] valuable was the [00:43:07] methodology was [00:43:08] to have [00:43:09] [00:43:10] a convention, [00:43:11] a constitutional [00:43:12] convention [00:43:13] that could be [00:43:14] initiated [00:43:15] by, [00:43:16] by the [00:43:17] states, by [00:43:18] two-thirds of the states saying, [00:43:19] "We want a convention."[00:43:20]

[00:43:21] Great. [00:43:22] Great. [00:43:23] Here's where it [00:43:24] fell short [00:43:25] [00:43:26] The, [00:43:27] the [00:43:28] provision [00:43:29] has almost no [00:43:30] detail to [00:43:31] it. [00:43:32] So [00:43:33] let's say a bunch of [00:43:34] states get together [00:43:35] and say, "We [00:43:36] want to have [00:43:37] a convention [00:43:38] so we can address [00:43:39] this particular [00:43:40] issue," [00:43:41] and they call for [00:43:42] a convention. [00:43:43] There is [00:43:44] nothing in Article [00:43:45] 5 that tells you [00:43:46] that once they start [00:43:47] convening, [00:43:48] whether they can address a [00:43:49] whole bunch of other [00:43:50] issues.

[00:43:51] And people say [00:43:52] that's Pandora's box. [00:43:53] That's a, y- [00:43:54] y- you know, [00:43:55] that's a, a runaway [00:43:56] convention.

Bruce Anthony: [00:43:57] Mm-hmm

Tom Teicher: [00:43:58] uh, you know, [00:43:59] scares the hell out of us. [00:44:00] There's [00:44:01] nothing in the provision that [00:44:02] tells you how delegates are [00:44:03] selected. [00:44:04] There are no [00:44:05] details at all. [00:44:06] So the [00:44:07] convention option [00:44:08] has always been too [00:44:09] hot to handle, [00:44:10] and, and the [00:44:11] tragedy, in my [00:44:12] view, is that the [00:44:13] convention option [00:44:14] also opens up [00:44:15] an [00:44:16] opportunity [00:44:17] beyond [00:44:18] that one [00:44:19] particular issue [00:44:20] that the, that, [00:44:21] you know, the states may [00:44:22] have in [00:44:23] mind.[00:44:24]

You know, [00:44:25] the way [00:44:26] we live [00:44:27] our lives [00:44:28] is really no [00:44:29] different than the way [00:44:30] we should deal [00:44:31] with the [00:44:32] Constitution. [00:44:33] We make [00:44:34] mid-course [00:44:35] corrections. Once in [00:44:36] a while in [00:44:37] life, we take a step [00:44:38] back, do some soul [00:44:39] searching, say [00:44:40] to ourselves, [00:44:41] "All right. Where am I [00:44:42] on course? What kind of [00:44:43] changes do I need to make?"[00:44:44]

[00:44:45] Sometimes you work for a company [00:44:46] or some other kind [00:44:47] of or- uh, of [00:44:48] organization, and they [00:44:49] go off on a weekend [00:44:50] retreat. [00:44:51] Again, take a step [00:44:52] back. Where are [00:44:53] we on course? What kind [00:44:54] of changes should we make? [00:44:55] No [00:44:56] different than the [00:44:57] Constitution, [00:44:58] because there are things [00:44:59] that change in [00:45:00] life, and you do [00:45:01] see what is working and [00:45:02] what is not working [00:45:03] and, and what [00:45:04] could be changed.[00:45:05]

So the [00:45:06] idea, in my [00:45:07] view, is to [00:45:08] have a Constitution [00:45:09] convention [00:45:10] which [00:45:11] can address as [00:45:12] few issues or [00:45:13] as many issues as the [00:45:14] delegates want. [00:45:15] The, [00:45:16] the 40-year [00:45:17] idea is [00:45:18] simply to [00:45:19] s- to sort of space it [00:45:20] properly. [00:45:21] You might [00:45:22] recall Thomas [00:45:23] Jefferson had suggested [00:45:24] that there be [00:45:25] a [00:45:26] convention once a [00:45:27] generation. He said [00:45:28] once every 19 [00:45:29] years, [00:45:30] because he felt that [00:45:31] no [00:45:32] generation should impose [00:45:33] [00:45:34] the Constitution on [00:45:35] the, the following [00:45:36] generation.[00:45:37]

He's a lot smarter than [00:45:38] I w- uh, he, he was [00:45:39] a lot smarter than I [00:45:40] am, but I've got a little [00:45:41] bit of a different take. [00:45:42] I, I [00:45:43] think it's gotta be [00:45:44] stretched out more [00:45:45] for, for two, three [00:45:46] reasons. [00:45:47] [00:45:48] You need [00:45:49] time to see [00:45:50] how [00:45:51] well the [00:45:52] changes that you're making [00:45:53] play out over [00:45:54] time.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:45:55]

Tom Teicher: [00:45:56] You don't necessarily wanna [00:45:57] start from scratch.

You wanna [00:45:58] build on that's... [00:45:59] You know, I imagine if a [00:46:00] convention gets together, [00:46:01] the very first thing we'll [00:46:02] do is say, "What [00:46:03] is working in the [00:46:04] Constitution? What do we [00:46:05] make sure we don't tamper [00:46:06] with?" [00:46:07] [00:46:08] [00:46:09] the, [00:46:10] the [00:46:11] the [00:46:12] Constitution also will [00:46:13] be-- the [00:46:14] convention will be [00:46:15] highly [00:46:16] disruptive. I mean, [00:46:17] just try to imagine [00:46:18] this.

[00:46:19] You have a process, [00:46:20] so we can go into [00:46:21] details on this, but you have a [00:46:22] process [00:46:23] where each [00:46:24] state has [00:46:25] to choose [00:46:26] its delegation. [00:46:27] [00:46:28] Then you have the convention [00:46:29] that meets for [00:46:30] however many [00:46:31] months to [00:46:32] address whatever [00:46:33] few or many [00:46:34] issues they want to address [00:46:35] and [00:46:36] putte-put together a [00:46:37] particular package of [00:46:38] changes.

[00:46:39] Then, in [00:46:40] the scheme that I'm [00:46:41] offering, [00:46:42] Congress gets a bite at [00:46:43] the apple. They [00:46:44] can't change it as [00:46:45] such, but [00:46:46] with two-thirds [00:46:47] vote of Congress, [00:46:48] they can make [00:46:49] recommendations. [00:46:50] Then it goes [00:46:51] back to the [00:46:52] convention, which [00:46:53] can say, "We like the [00:46:54] changes," [00:46:55] or, "We're gonna override [00:46:56] them. We don't want the [00:46:57] changes," or, "We [00:46:58] want some or all of [00:46:59] them."

And by [00:47:00] two-thirds, [00:47:01] rather than the original [00:47:02] majority, they can [00:47:03] switch it back or do [00:47:04] whatever they want. [00:47:05] And then it comes to [00:47:06] ratification. [00:47:07] And in my view, [00:47:08] ratification should come [00:47:09] from the people, [00:47:10] not the state [00:47:11] legislators. [00:47:12] The-- And [00:47:13] so then [00:47:14] you need a period of [00:47:15] time [00:47:16] where people need to [00:47:17] become acquainted with [00:47:18] what is in the [00:47:19] Constitution, what [00:47:20] changes have been [00:47:21] made.

You might [00:47:22] recall the Federalist [00:47:23] Papers from your high [00:47:24] school civics. [00:47:25] Then there, there's stuff [00:47:26] that'll be published. [00:47:27] There'll be [00:47:28] conversations, [00:47:29] you know, on [00:47:30] TV and through social [00:47:31] media, wherever. [00:47:32] And then [00:47:33] there's finally a [00:47:34] vote of the people, [00:47:35] majority wins. [00:47:36] Either the people [00:47:37] say, "Yes, we [00:47:38] want this package of [00:47:39] amendments," or, [00:47:40] "No, we don't."[00:47:41]

This is gonna take [00:47:42] time, and it's [00:47:43] gonna be disruptive because you [00:47:44] still have to run your [00:47:45] government parallel to all [00:47:46] of that. So [00:47:47] for a combination of [00:47:48] reasons, I think it should be [00:47:49] stretched out to, to [00:47:50] 40 years. [00:47:51] But [00:47:52] we can talk more about [00:47:53] the details, and, [00:47:54] uh, I [00:47:55] particularly want to at least, [00:47:56] uh, address [00:47:57] the issue of how the [00:47:58] delegates are [00:47:59] selected

Bruce Anthony: [00:48:00] I,

Keeping dark money out of delegate picks and the 80 percent rule 💰🚫🗳

Bruce Anthony: [00:48:01] I was j- that [00:48:02] was literally, [00:48:03] Tom, you're on [00:48:04] it. You must have read my [00:48:05] mind, 'cause that is [00:48:06] literally the next [00:48:07] question. Because [00:48:08] if states are [00:48:09] selecting the [00:48:10] delegates and we have [00:48:11] so much [00:48:12] [00:48:13] [00:48:14] money [00:48:15] [00:48:16] in [00:48:17] politics now [00:48:18] that influence [00:48:19] our [00:48:20] legislation now, how [00:48:21] can we keep [00:48:22] that money [00:48:23] or certain [00:48:24] figures that are-- [00:48:25] that have a lot of [00:48:26] money, or [00:48:27] organizations that have a [00:48:28] lot of money [00:48:29] from [00:48:30] influencing the states when [00:48:31] they choose the [00:48:32] delegates? [00:48:33] [00:48:34] And then, and, and [00:48:35] let's, let's focus [00:48:36] on the delegates first, 'cause [00:48:37] then I have [00:48:38] another question [00:48:39] about the [00:48:40] people [00:48:41] making decisions, [00:48:42] uh, uh,

Tom Teicher: [00:48:43] Okay

Bruce Anthony: the final [00:48:44] choice, leaving the choice [00:48:45] for the people. But let's focus [00:48:46] on the delegates. How do [00:48:47] we keep [00:48:48] money from [00:48:49] influencing [00:48:50] who the [00:48:51] states select to be [00:48:52] the delegates?[00:48:53] [00:48:54]

Tom Teicher: An important [00:48:55] question. [00:48:56] [00:48:57] The underlying [00:48:58] principle is that [00:48:59] the system has to [00:49:00] have an integrity [00:49:01] to it. [00:49:02] It has to [00:49:03] be [00:49:04] [00:49:05] designed in a way [00:49:06] so that no [00:49:07] one can put [00:49:08] their thumb on [00:49:09] the scale. [00:49:10] As a [00:49:11] result, for example, [00:49:12] no one [00:49:13] who is a current public [00:49:14] official would be [00:49:15] permitted to be a [00:49:16] delegate. [00:49:17] And it would also be [00:49:18] designed in a way [00:49:19] that it [00:49:20] makes no [00:49:21] difference [00:49:22] which political [00:49:23] party has the upper [00:49:24] hand at the [00:49:25] time the [00:49:26] convention is held.[00:49:27]

The timing [00:49:28] of it will not [00:49:29] be important. [00:49:30] So [00:49:31] [00:49:32] how are the [00:49:33] delegates [00:49:34] selected? [00:49:35] Imagine [00:49:36] that [00:49:37] each [00:49:38] state [00:49:39] and DC, [00:49:40] I think it's [00:49:41] time to bring them back into the [00:49:42] union, [00:49:43] so [00:49:44] the equivalent of [00:49:45] fifty-one states, each one [00:49:46] has a [00:49:47] delegation of [00:49:48] three people. [00:49:49] How are those [00:49:50] delegates selected? [00:49:51] Let [00:49:52] us, for exampl-- [00:49:53] for, for now just [00:49:54] set aside [00:49:55] Nebraska and [00:49:56] DC, which [00:49:57] have just [00:49:58] one-body [00:49:59] legislatures.[00:50:00]

[00:50:01] Forty-nine of them [00:50:02] have two-body [00:50:03] legislatures. Let's talk about the [00:50:04] typical case. [00:50:05] All right? [00:50:06] [00:50:07] The way [00:50:08] this scheme would [00:50:09] work would [00:50:10] be each [00:50:11] house, [00:50:12] each chamber [00:50:13] would get to choose [00:50:14] one [00:50:15] delegate. [00:50:16] So if you have a [00:50:17] Senate, they could [00:50:18] choose one delegate, [00:50:19] a House, [00:50:20] or whatever they're called, [00:50:21] they could choose [00:50:22] one delegate, [00:50:23] and then those two [00:50:24] delegates would [00:50:25] choose the third.[00:50:26]

So [00:50:27] let's [00:50:28] say... Let's [00:50:29] take a hypothetical, [00:50:30] Bruce. [00:50:31] Let us say [00:50:32] you are [00:50:33] a member of [00:50:34] your state's legislature. [00:50:35] Congratulations. [00:50:36] [00:50:37] And [00:50:38] let's say [00:50:39] that [00:50:40] you are concerned-- [00:50:41] And you may be concerned [00:50:42] about who's putting money [00:50:43] in and, and all the [00:50:44] other ways states could be [00:50:45] influenced. All right? [00:50:46] And let's [00:50:47] say you're also [00:50:48] concerned [00:50:49] about the [00:50:50] political biases that [00:50:51] are gonna be [00:50:52] in-involved.

[00:50:53] And let's say that you're in [00:50:54] the minority. [00:50:55] Let us [00:50:56] say that you're [00:50:57] in a state, [00:50:58] and you're in the [00:50:59] state Senate, [00:51:00] and you [00:51:01] have-- There [00:51:02] are one hundred [00:51:03] members [00:51:04] of the state Senate. [00:51:05] And [00:51:06] just hypothetically, I have [00:51:07] no idea what your [00:51:08] political affiliation is, [00:51:09] but let's say [00:51:10] hypothetically you're a [00:51:11] Democrat, and you are in the [00:51:12] minority.

[00:51:13] Let's say there are [00:51:14] forty of you [00:51:15] who are [00:51:16] Democrats, and there are sixty [00:51:17] who are [00:51:18] Republicans. [00:51:19] Now, you're gonna be [00:51:20] concerned, well, the Republicans will [00:51:21] have their way. [00:51:22] Well, not so [00:51:23] fast [00:51:24] because the way [00:51:25] this operates [00:51:26] is the bar [00:51:27] is set [00:51:28] very high, [00:51:29] that [00:51:30] chamber will [00:51:31] have to find [00:51:32] somebody who will [00:51:33] receive at [00:51:34] least eighty [00:51:35] percent approval [00:51:36] of that [00:51:37] chamber.

Bruce Anthony: [00:51:38] Oh, [00:51:39] okay. So

Tom Teicher: [00:51:40] So

Bruce Anthony: this [00:51:41] is even more [00:51:42] than, [00:51:43] uh, what's [00:51:44] needed in [00:51:45] the Senate to [00:51:46] pass a [00:51:47] bill

[00:51:48] currently.

Tom Teicher: [00:51:49] Right. Right. [00:51:50] S- because [00:51:51] in the vast [00:51:52] majority of [00:51:53] states [00:51:54] [00:51:55] [00:51:56] In 35 [00:51:57] states, [00:51:58] in [00:51:59] neither [00:52:00] house, in neither [00:52:01] chamber, do you [00:52:02] have [00:52:03] 80% of one party or the [00:52:04] other. And then in [00:52:05] another three [00:52:06] states, you have three [00:52:07] more states [00:52:08] that have, [00:52:09] [00:52:10] [00:52:11] 80% in only [00:52:12] one of the two [00:52:13] chambers.

Bruce Anthony: Ooh, I [00:52:14] don't wanna... I, I, I, [00:52:15] I I just [00:52:16] have to ask this one [00:52:17] question [00:52:18] because [00:52:19] that could change [00:52:20] with [00:52:21] redistr- with [00:52:22] redistricting, right? [00:52:23] With [00:52:24] states drawing the [00:52:25] maps to [00:52:26] eliminate. [00:52:27] So [00:52:28] the, [00:52:29] the, I-- [00:52:30] There's another [00:52:31] issue with, [00:52:32] "Oh, we, we'll make [00:52:33] sure that the next [00:52:34] cycle will hit the [00:52:35] 80% [00:52:36] threshold with [00:52:37] [00:52:38] Republicans or [00:52:39] Democrats because we're gonna [00:52:40] rewrite this [00:52:41] congressional map [00:52:42] so that it's [00:52:43] in our favor."[00:52:44]

Tom Teicher: Okay. [00:52:45] So there are [00:52:46] 13 [00:52:47] states, only about a [00:52:48] quarter of them, [00:52:49] that are skewed [00:52:50] left or [00:52:51] skewed right. [00:52:52] And so they [00:52:53] will likely choose [00:52:54] [00:52:55] representatives who [00:52:56] reflect [00:52:57] the preponderance [00:52:58] of that [00:52:59] state's [00:53:00] leanings. And, [00:53:01] and in, in that sense, [00:53:02] if it's so [00:53:03] overwhelming, it's probably not [00:53:04] inappropriate anyway [00:53:05] because that's the way our state [00:53:06] leans.[00:53:07]

But as far as [00:53:08] gerrymandering is [00:53:09] concerned, [00:53:10] if you look [00:53:11] at just the last [00:53:12] few years, [00:53:13] it's pretty, [00:53:14] it's pretty [00:53:15] steady. [00:53:16] And you're [00:53:17] not even [00:53:18] close to, [00:53:19] to being [00:53:20] able to [00:53:21] rig the system [00:53:22] so that, [00:53:23] [00:53:24] [00:53:25] so that you can [00:53:26] get eighty percent [00:53:27] or more [00:53:28] uh, [00:53:29] one way [00:53:30] or the other. [00:53:31] So [00:53:32] this thing is [00:53:33] designed [00:53:34] to [00:53:35] to provide a [00:53:36] safeguard against that.

So the [00:53:37] bar is set real [00:53:38] high. So if [00:53:39] you are in the [00:53:40] legislature, and you're [00:53:41] one of only [00:53:42] forty, [00:53:43] but it's [00:53:44] gonna require [00:53:45] eighty [00:53:46] people, [00:53:47] uh, [00:53:48] who approve it, [00:53:49] [00:53:50] you're gonna [00:53:51] have to find somebody that [00:53:52] makes both-- [00:53:53] that makes everybody [00:53:54] happy. That people [00:53:55] at both ends of the [00:53:56] spectrum can say, "All [00:53:57] right. [00:53:58] This is somebody [00:53:59] who is [00:54:00] representing our chamber, [00:54:01] who is representing [00:54:02] our state.

[00:54:03] We are finding [00:54:04] one person to [00:54:05] represent our chamber." [00:54:06] That [00:54:07] person's gonna be pretty, [00:54:08] pretty [00:54:09] well-respected, [00:54:10] pretty [00:54:11] well-regarded by [00:54:12] people across the [00:54:13] board, whoever [00:54:14] it is that they [00:54:15] choose, and one [00:54:16] side isn't gonna be able to [00:54:17] impose their will [00:54:18] on the other. [00:54:19] And so [00:54:20] you're, you're going [00:54:21] for quality over [00:54:22] partisanship here.[00:54:23]

[00:54:24] And [00:54:25] so that [00:54:26] provides the, the essence [00:54:27] of it. And [00:54:28] then those two [00:54:29] members [00:54:30] get to choose the [00:54:31] third, [00:54:32] which will [00:54:33] enable the [00:54:34] delegation [00:54:35] to have a third member [00:54:36] who perhaps offers [00:54:37] a different [00:54:38] perspective, different set of [00:54:39] skills and the like [00:54:40] for that three-person [00:54:41] [00:54:42] delegation

​

Bruce Anthony: [00:54:43] [00:54:44] [00:54:45] [00:54:46] [00:54:47] [00:54:48] [00:54:49] [00:54:50] What [00:54:51] stops a state from [00:54:52] just, from [00:54:53] saying, "We can't [00:54:54] agree on [00:54:55] the delegates. We're [00:54:56] not gonna send any [00:54:57] delegates." [00:54:58] Right? And you would say, [00:54:59] well, for that state, they [00:55:00] just wouldn't be a part of the [00:55:01] convention. But if [00:55:02] enough states [00:55:03] did that, then it [00:55:04] wouldn't matter [00:55:05] [00:55:06] what the [00:55:07] convention [00:55:08] produced, you wouldn't have [00:55:09] enough states [00:55:10] to ratify, [00:55:11] to even send it to [00:55:12] Congress under your [00:55:13] idea for them to [00:55:14] do the little tweaks to send it [00:55:15] back.

So [00:55:16] what [00:55:17] safeguards would you, [00:55:18] would be needed to [00:55:19] be put in place [00:55:20] to say, " No, a [00:55:21] state needs to send a [00:55:22] delegate. You [00:55:23] have to get this done [00:55:24] by this time in [00:55:25] order to get the [00:55:26] convention going"?[00:55:27]

Tom Teicher: Well, the [00:55:28] outline I've [00:55:29] put together for this [00:55:30] thing does require [00:55:31] that [00:55:32] they create their [00:55:33] delegations by a [00:55:34] certain date, [00:55:35] and if they don't, [00:55:36] [00:55:37] then they've [00:55:38] disempowered themselves. [00:55:39] Uh, [00:55:40] [00:55:41] I'm not especially [00:55:42] concerned that there'll be [00:55:43] bunches of, of [00:55:44] states that wouldn't [00:55:45] provide delegates. [00:55:46] [00:55:47] Y- you [00:55:48] know, this has to [00:55:49] be an amendment that, [00:55:50] that, [00:55:51] that passes. [00:55:52]

Ratification, majority rule, and why no state will sit this out ✍🗳🤝

Tom Teicher: There, there has to [00:55:53] be a, a [00:55:54] sense that-- [00:55:55] And in order to become [00:55:56] an amendment, [00:55:57] it's gotta go through the [00:55:58] current [00:55:59] Article V [00:56:00] process. [00:56:01] And [00:56:02] so you're gonna [00:56:03] have to have [00:56:04] this amendment [00:56:05] get passed by [00:56:06] two-thirds of [00:56:07] the House and [00:56:08] Senate, and then [00:56:09] three-quarters of the [00:56:10] states, [00:56:11] and [00:56:12] clearly it's gonna, uh, [00:56:13] [00:56:14] reflect [00:56:15] the support of [00:56:16] the people [00:56:17] in, in this kind of [00:56:18] system.

And if you're [00:56:19] gonna go into all that [00:56:20] trouble and then [00:56:21] abstain from [00:56:22] selecting a [00:56:23] representative, [00:56:24] [00:56:25] I don't think you're doing your [00:56:26] job. [00:56:27] And, uh, [00:56:28] so I'm not g- I [00:56:29] guess in a [00:56:30] worst-case scenario, [00:56:31] if [00:56:32] there, you [00:56:33] know, if there [00:56:34] weren't [00:56:35] enough [00:56:36] States, [00:56:37] Well, actually, [00:56:38] the way this thing is [00:56:39] designed is [00:56:40] that you couldn't run into [00:56:41] that problem.[00:56:42]

The reason [00:56:43] being [00:56:44] that the, [00:56:45] [00:56:46] [00:56:47] the [00:56:48] changes [00:56:49] that [00:56:50] the [00:56:51] convention would produce [00:56:52] would [00:56:53] reflect a [00:56:54] majority of, [00:56:55] of [00:56:56] votes, not [00:56:57] majority of states. [00:56:58] And [00:56:59] so if [00:57:00] somebody doesn't-- a [00:57:01] state doesn't show up, [00:57:02] that's their [00:57:03] loss. [00:57:04] Y- y- [00:57:05] you know, if at the [00:57:06] end [00:57:07] you, you know, you [00:57:08] have [00:57:09] 49 [00:57:10] states that show up, [00:57:11] [00:57:12] then, you know, the 25 [00:57:13] [00:57:14] votes in [00:57:15] favor of a particular [00:57:16] amendment will get the job done.[00:57:17]

You won't need [00:57:18] 26. [00:57:19] Twenty-five is, is to a [00:57:20] majority of, [00:57:21] of those people, [00:57:22] of those delegations [00:57:23] who, who [00:57:24] vote. I [00:57:25] like to think that a [00:57:26] state wouldn't wanna be [00:57:27] left out, [00:57:28] and, [00:57:29] [00:57:30] these [00:57:31] these po-- I, I [00:57:32] know that the compromise [00:57:33] is kind of out of vogue [00:57:34] these days, [00:57:35] but I, I would [00:57:36] think that [00:57:37] these [00:57:38] legislators [00:57:39] wouldn't wanna [00:57:40] be left out of the [00:57:41] process, and [00:57:42] they will be able [00:57:43] to identify [00:57:44] somebody who they [00:57:45] say, "You know, [00:57:46] I don't [00:57:47] completely agree with this guy, [00:57:48] and they don't completely [00:57:49] agree with this guy, [00:57:50] but we re- really [00:57:51] respect this [00:57:52] person or gal, this [00:57:53] woman's [00:57:54] judgment, their [00:57:55] thoughtfulness, their [00:57:56] experience, their wisdom.[00:57:57]

This will [00:57:58] be a good representative [00:57:59] for our state."[00:58:00]

Bruce Anthony: I feel like you've

The slippery slope: could a convention gut our current rights? ⚠📜🛑

Bruce Anthony: already [00:58:01] answered my [00:58:02] question about the slippery [00:58:03] slope of [00:58:04] [00:58:05] repealing amendments [00:58:06] that are already in the [00:58:07] proc- that are [00:58:08] already on [00:58:09] in the [00:58:10] Constitution, because [00:58:11] ultimately [00:58:12] going through all [00:58:13] these stages, [00:58:14] the people [00:58:15] still vote [00:58:16] on [00:58:17] what, uh, [00:58:18] what gets [00:58:19] passed. They're the final vote [00:58:20] under

[00:58:21] your

Tom Teicher: the, [00:58:22] the, people will, [00:58:23] the people will get [00:58:24] the, the final vote. [00:58:25] It's up or down by a [00:58:26] majority vote. [00:58:27] [00:58:28] But also [00:58:29] in that earlier [00:58:30] process, in a dela- [00:58:31] you know, [00:58:32] uh, uh, [00:58:33] again, [00:58:34] imagine [00:58:35] [00:58:36] yourself in [00:58:37] the, in the [00:58:38] legislature, [00:58:39] [00:58:40] and [00:58:41] you [00:58:42] and your Democratic [00:58:43] colleagues [00:58:44] have got [00:58:45] to either [00:58:46] agree on or help [00:58:47] identify somebody [00:58:48] new that your [00:58:49] Republican friends can, [00:58:50] uh, can [00:58:51] live with as well, [00:58:52] and that will [00:58:53] be able to collect [00:58:54] 80 votes [00:58:55] to find [00:58:56] a person [00:58:57] from your [00:58:58] state who is so [00:58:59] well-respected [00:59:00] that they can get the [00:59:01] support of [00:59:02] 80% of [00:59:03] these [00:59:04] people.[00:59:05]

And [00:59:06] then think, "All right, [00:59:07] where do I place my [00:59:08] bet? [00:59:09] Do I think [00:59:10] that if [00:59:11] this person [00:59:12] is representative [00:59:13] of who's gonna [00:59:14] be in that [00:59:15] convention, do [00:59:16] I think [00:59:17] that [00:59:18] they are likely to come [00:59:19] up with a [00:59:20] better constitution, [00:59:21] or do I [00:59:22] think they're more likely to [00:59:23] sabotage the good [00:59:24] things that we have [00:59:25] in our [00:59:26] Constitution?"

[00:59:27] I c- I can't tell you [00:59:28] how to [00:59:29] that, but [00:59:30] I, I think it's a [00:59:31] pretty good bet[00:59:32]

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:33] Okay. [00:59:34]

People are dumb: can voters be trusted with the Constitution? 🧠📱❓

Bruce Anthony: so [00:59:35] [00:59:36] the thing that [00:59:37] bothers me [00:59:38] [00:59:39] is, [00:59:40] how can I say [00:59:41] this [00:59:42] delicately? Well, I'm [00:59:43] not gonna be delicate. [00:59:44] People are [00:59:45] dumb, and I'm [00:59:46] not talking [00:59:47] solely [00:59:48] politicians. I'm talking about [00:59:49] generally [00:59:50] speaking, [00:59:51] people are dumb. [00:59:52] The-- I don't, [00:59:53] I don't remember [00:59:54] exactly what the [00:59:55] reading level [00:59:56] is, the average reading [00:59:57] level for the US, but [00:59:58] I think it's [00:59:59] [01:00:00] seventh grade, [01:00:01] maybe sixth [01:00:02] grade.

Tom Teicher: No.[01:00:03]

Bruce Anthony: And [01:00:04] especially with [01:00:05] technology, [01:00:06] so many people are [01:00:07] [01:00:08] f-fooled by [01:00:09] these clips, [01:00:10] these [01:00:11] reels, without [01:00:12] digging deep, [01:00:13] researching, [01:00:14] finding out if it's true or [01:00:15] not. They go off [01:00:16] on these half-cocked [01:00:17] ideas. They [01:00:18] listen to people that [01:00:19] they think that [01:00:20] they should [01:00:21] trust, [01:00:22] and that's where they get [01:00:23] their information. [01:00:24] What scares [01:00:25] me [01:00:26] is [01:00:27] putting [01:00:28] [01:00:29] the future [01:00:30] of this [01:00:31] country in [01:00:32] the hands [01:00:33] of people, [01:00:34] [01:00:35] especially given [01:00:36] some of the [01:00:37] choices that [01:00:38] have been [01:00:39] made, uh, [01:00:40] just as far as [01:00:41] elections are [01:00:42] concerned, [01:00:43] uh, within [01:00:44] the last [01:00:45] 10 to 15 years.

How [01:00:46] do we [01:00:47] [01:00:48] [01:00:49] trust [01:00:50] that [01:00:51] the [01:00:52] delegates, the convention, [01:00:53] the people that [01:00:54] will be [01:00:55] enforcing the [01:00:56] rules will get the [01:00:57] information [01:00:58] that's needed to make [01:00:59] an informed [01:01:00] vote [01:01:01] when it comes time [01:01:02] for the [01:01:03] masses to [01:01:04] vote and [01:01:05] get that [01:01:06] majority to [01:01:07] pass [01:01:08] or [01:01:09] [01:01:10] repeal [01:01:11] [01:01:12] or [01:01:13] stay the [01:01:14] course with the [01:01:15] Constitution?[01:01:16]

Tom Teicher: So

Responsibility for all, trusting the process, and the verdict 📰🧭🙌

Tom Teicher: [01:01:17] since the citizens will [01:01:18] have-- the electorate [01:01:19] will have the final [01:01:20] vote [01:01:21] on this through [01:01:22] the ratification [01:01:23] process [01:01:24] [01:01:25] And, you know, [01:01:26] it's not gonna be the [01:01:27] same as it was in the late [01:01:28] 1700s [01:01:29] where there are [01:01:30] people, you know, [01:01:31] reading the Federalist Papers [01:01:32] and all that. There are some people who [01:01:33] will, [01:01:34] but you have different [01:01:35] levels of [01:01:36] education, you [01:01:37] have different levels of, [01:01:38] of [01:01:39] interest, and you [01:01:40] have different [01:01:41] technologies and means [01:01:42] to [01:01:43] communicate.

[01:01:44] At the end of the day, there [01:01:45] are [01:01:46] responsibilities, [01:01:47] responsibilities [01:01:48] of public officials to [01:01:49] communicate, [01:01:50] responsibilities of the [01:01:51] press to [01:01:52] communicate, [01:01:53] responsibilities of [01:01:54] the citizens [01:01:55] to [01:01:56] learn [01:01:57] about what's going [01:01:58] on, [01:01:59] to develop the [01:02:00] analytical skills. This is [01:02:01] partly about our [01:02:02] educational system as well. [01:02:03] I think, [01:02:04] you know, I think [01:02:05] one of the-- you [01:02:06] know, as sort of an [01:02:07] aside, [01:02:08] one of the [01:02:09] ideas that applies in a [01:02:10] number of countries that [01:02:11] has never made any [01:02:12] sense to me [01:02:13] is the idea of making [01:02:14] voting [01:02:15] mandatory.

[01:02:16] I can't understand why [01:02:17] you would want voting [01:02:18] mandatory and [01:02:19] force somebody to vote [01:02:20] if they're not prepared to [01:02:21] participate and they [01:02:22] haven't done any homework, [01:02:23] and [01:02:24] they are, [01:02:25] they are [01:02:26] gullible. [01:02:27] And [01:02:28] if they hear [01:02:29] something on a 20-second [01:02:30] commercial, "Ah, [01:02:31] that sounds good. [01:02:32] I bite, and I [01:02:33] go for that." [01:02:34] So [01:02:35] it requires [01:02:36] responsibility on the part of [01:02:37] the citizens and a [01:02:38] lot of other players [01:02:39] to [01:02:40] make good [01:02:41] decisions.

But in a [01:02:42] democracy, [01:02:43] you know, [01:02:44] ultimately [01:02:45] you make [01:02:46] decisions [01:02:47] directly or indirectly [01:02:48] through your [01:02:49] representatives. Here it's kind of a [01:02:50] combination of [01:02:51] both, and that's the way we, [01:02:52] we, we [01:02:53] normally operate. [01:02:54] [01:02:55] And I think, [01:02:56] you know, it-it's [01:02:57] interesting. One [01:02:58] of the [01:02:59] issues, for [01:03:00] example, [01:03:01] that a [01:03:02] convention could [01:03:03] address would [01:03:04] be issues [01:03:05] like campaign [01:03:06] financing.[01:03:07]

It could [01:03:08] involve other [01:03:09] things that [01:03:10] in some way [01:03:11] impact, [01:03:12] [01:03:13] what the [01:03:14] election process [01:03:15] should be like [01:03:16] and if there are [01:03:17] ways [01:03:18] to make it [01:03:19] more [01:03:20] equitable. [01:03:21] [01:03:22] You know, they can even [01:03:23] change [01:03:24] our, our [01:03:25] political party [01:03:26] system. [01:03:27] The, you know, [01:03:28] the-- We have a [01:03:29] two-party [01:03:30] system, which in a [01:03:31] sense, [01:03:32] [01:03:33] [01:03:34] fosters [01:03:35] everything being in black [01:03:36] and white.

Good [01:03:37] guys, bad guys. [01:03:38] Everything is [01:03:39] that simple. [01:03:40] Well, one of the [01:03:41] benefits, and this is just [01:03:42] my own bias on this, [01:03:43] one of [01:03:44] the, the benefits [01:03:45] of having a, [01:03:46] a [01:03:47] multi-party system [01:03:48] is [01:03:49] that [01:03:50] there'll be [01:03:51] there'll be opportunities [01:03:52] to talk about things in [01:03:53] shades of gray. [01:03:54] You'll have to develop [01:03:55] coalitions. [01:03:56] It, it becomes a different [01:03:57] game, and the [01:03:58] way, the [01:03:59] way [01:04:00] people are [01:04:01] elected [01:04:02] may be [01:04:03] different 'cause they'll have [01:04:04] to, [01:04:05] probably [01:04:06] broaden the scope of who it [01:04:07] is that they, [01:04:08] they want, uh, [01:04:09] to vote for them.[01:04:10]

[01:04:11] So delegates will decide [01:04:12] what issues they want. [01:04:13] Uh, that's gonna be their [01:04:14] call, and a [01:04:15] big part of this is [01:04:16] to trust the [01:04:17] process, [01:04:18] which [01:04:19] [01:04:20] may not sound very [01:04:21] good, but I [01:04:22] think it's really [01:04:23] critical. But [01:04:24] getting back to [01:04:25] your question, [01:04:26] [01:04:27] I think there's always [01:04:28] risk in a [01:04:29] democracy. In a democracy, [01:04:30] people can make [01:04:31] bad decisions.[01:04:32]

I think the best [01:04:33] we can do [01:04:34] is, [01:04:35] uh, help [01:04:36] prepare them [01:04:37] and hope the people [01:04:38] themselves [01:04:39] are motivated. In, [01:04:40] in fact, [01:04:41] at the risk of [01:04:42] being a little bit [01:04:43] Pollyannish, [01:04:44] I, [01:04:45] I hope [01:04:46] that both [01:04:47] the process of [01:04:48] people [01:04:49] thinking about this [01:04:50] 28th Amendment [01:04:51] and deciding [01:04:52] [01:04:53] to encourage their [01:04:54] representatives [01:04:55] to, to vote for it, [01:04:56] and the [01:04:57] process of [01:04:58] people learning [01:04:59] about the particular [01:05:00] proposals that [01:05:01] come out of the [01:05:02] convention and how [01:05:03] that convention is [01:05:04] organized, [01:05:05] bringing together [01:05:06] people [01:05:07] who are [01:05:08] respected [01:05:09] on at both [01:05:10] ends of the spectrum, [01:05:11] might, in [01:05:12] its own way, [01:05:13] have a bit of a [01:05:14] unifying [01:05:15] effect.

That we're [01:05:16] all in this [01:05:17] together, that here's a [01:05:18] chance for a [01:05:19] reset, [01:05:20] maybe lower the [01:05:21] voices a little bit [01:05:22] and, and try [01:05:23] to help us move forward in [01:05:24] a more constructive [01:05:25] way. I, I don't [01:05:26] know if that's [01:05:27] realistic, but [01:05:28] I, I, you know, I [01:05:29] hope that could be [01:05:30] a byproduct of [01:05:31] this process.[01:05:32]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, [01:05:33] you know, when [01:05:34] I heard [01:05:35] about this [01:05:36] idea, you know, I, [01:05:37] I'm [01:05:38] 50/50 [01:05:39] on it. I see the [01:05:40] good. I definitely [01:05:41] see the good. [01:05:42] I can also [01:05:43] see how [01:05:44] it could be [01:05:45] [01:05:46] dangerous, but [01:05:47] you've kind [01:05:48] of [01:05:49] [01:05:50] built in a- [01:05:51] enough [01:05:52] safeguards, [01:05:53] [01:05:54] that I think [01:05:55] that it, it [01:05:56] could all [01:05:57] [01:05:58] work out. [01:05:59] It's definitely [01:06:00] interesting, and it's [01:06:01] definitely something that I'm [01:06:02] glad that you [01:06:03] brought to the [01:06:04] table here for us all [01:06:05] to think about [01:06:06] because you [01:06:07] do make a very [01:06:08] valid point.

[01:06:09] 17 amendments in [01:06:10] 200 [01:06:11] years, mm, [01:06:12] [01:06:13] probably not good enough, [01:06:14] and it is [01:06:15] extremely hard to [01:06:16] get [01:06:17] the current [01:06:18] Congress to agree on [01:06:19] passing [01:06:20] a [01:06:21] spending bill. [01:06:22] So [01:06:23] yes, [01:06:24] it, it-- I, [01:06:25] I see [01:06:26] benefits [01:06:27] in [01:06:28] doing it this way, [01:06:29] going [01:06:30] back to the states [01:06:31] and then [01:06:32] kicking it to the [01:06:33] people, [01:06:34] but people need [01:06:35] to... It, it seems [01:06:36] like what you're [01:06:37] pitching is [01:06:38] responsibility [01:06:39] for all.

Like, [01:06:40] everybody take a [01:06:41] hand in this [01:06:42] process and, [01:06:43] and even [01:06:44] though I think people [01:06:45] generally are dumb, [01:06:46] they-- I [01:06:47] think that maybe they [01:06:48] wouldn't be dumb if [01:06:49] they felt [01:06:50] like [01:06:51] had direct [01:06:52] connection to [01:06:53] change. [01:06:54] So very [01:06:55] interesting idea. I'm [01:06:56] very happy that you, [01:06:57] that you brought it to the [01:06:58] show for my audience to [01:06:59] learn [01:07:00] from

Tom Teicher: Well, Bruce, I, I [01:07:01] really appreciate the [01:07:02] opportunity to [01:07:03] present the [01:07:04] idea [01:07:05] to [01:07:06] maybe share a little bit of [01:07:07] my background and, and [01:07:08] perspective for what it's [01:07:09] worth. [01:07:10] And [01:07:11] I, I just [01:07:12] appreciate your, your [01:07:13] receptivity and [01:07:14] interest in sharing the [01:07:15] idea with, with [01:07:16] the viewers. [01:07:17] If people are [01:07:18] interested [01:07:19] in seeing [01:07:20] the proposal in [01:07:21] detail, [01:07:22] if you don't mind my just sort [01:07:23] of pitching my [01:07:24] website.

[01:07:25] Uh, [01:07:26] [01:07:27] So, uh, in [01:07:28] its current form, [01:07:29] I'm, I'm gonna be [01:07:30] developing a [01:07:31] new website, but for [01:07:32] now, I have a [01:07:33] website called [01:07:34] [01:07:35] tomteicher.com. That's [01:07:36] T-O-M [01:07:37] [01:07:38] [01:07:39] [01:07:40] [01:07:41] T-E-I-C-H-E-R.com, [01:07:42] and there's a [01:07:43] tab [01:07:44] that [01:07:45] discusses the [01:07:46] 28th Amendment, [01:07:47] and I [01:07:48] encourage people [01:07:49] to [01:07:50] think about it carefully, [01:07:51] talk about it with [01:07:52] friends, give me [01:07:53] feedback. [01:07:54] [01:07:55] And [01:07:56] I hope that it, [01:07:57] enters [01:07:58] the so-called [01:07:59] marketplace of ideas and [01:08:00] see where it [01:08:01] goes

Bruce Anthony: And ladies and [01:08:02] gentlemen, that information [01:08:03] will be in the [01:08:04] details section [01:08:05] of the episode [01:08:06] as well as [01:08:07] on the [01:08:08] website to help [01:08:09] you [01:08:10] also find [01:08:11] Tom's website. [01:08:12] Tom, [01:08:13] thank you so [01:08:14] much for coming on the [01:08:15] show. It, it was really a [01:08:16] delight to learn [01:08:17] about your life and to [01:08:18] learn about your 28th [01:08:19] Amendment idea. [01:08:20] You, sir, have [01:08:21] lived, [01:08:22] have [01:08:23] lived.

[01:08:24] That's, that's, uh-- You [01:08:25] have lived. You [01:08:26] have lived [01:08:27] experiences [01:08:28] that, uh, are [01:08:29] worth chronicling, [01:08:30] and so thank [01:08:31] you so much for, for [01:08:32] coming on the show and [01:08:33] sharing it with us[01:08:34]

Tom Teicher: Well, thank you, Bruce. Thank you [01:08:35] for the opportunity a- [01:08:36] and the good work you're doing[01:08:37]

Bruce Anthony: It was my [01:08:38] pleasure

[01:08:39] You know, coming

People need a foundation, and the real question of what we owe 🧱🤝💭

Bruce Anthony: into [01:08:40] this [01:08:41] conversation, I knew we were gonna [01:08:42] talk about prison [01:08:43] reentry, I knew [01:08:44] we were gonna talk about [01:08:45] homelessness or the unhoused, [01:08:46] and [01:08:47] I knew we were gonna talk about [01:08:48] the 28th Amendment [01:08:49] idea. [01:08:50] But I didn't [01:08:51] expect all three [01:08:52] conversations to keep [01:08:53] coming back to the same [01:08:54] thing. [01:08:55] People [01:08:56] need a foundation.[01:08:57]

[01:08:58] Tom talked about growing [01:08:59] up in a house where he [01:09:00] felt that the world was [01:09:01] his oyster. [01:09:02] He had [01:09:03] opportunities. He had people [01:09:04] around him who [01:09:05] could encourage [01:09:06] him, correct [01:09:07] him, and help him [01:09:08] get back when he [01:09:09] fell. [01:09:10] And then he spent [01:09:11] his career meeting [01:09:12] people who didn't [01:09:13] have that luxury. [01:09:14] People [01:09:15] coming home from [01:09:16] prison who [01:09:17] had a plan but [01:09:18] didn't have a plan [01:09:19] B.

People [01:09:20] who were [01:09:21] unhoused and working 40 [01:09:22] hours a week but still [01:09:23] couldn't afford a place to [01:09:24] live. People [01:09:25] who were told they needed [01:09:26] to get their lives [01:09:27] together without [01:09:28] anybody really asking [01:09:29] what they were supposed to [01:09:30] build that life on. [01:09:31] And [01:09:32] that brought us back to [01:09:33] something Tom said that [01:09:34] stuck with me, [01:09:35] [01:09:36] resilience.[01:09:37]

Because like he [01:09:38] said, [01:09:39] life can [01:09:40] punch you in the [01:09:41] face, and [01:09:42] that's true whether [01:09:43] you're coming home from [01:09:44] prison, trying to get off [01:09:45] the street, building a [01:09:46] business, [01:09:47] raising a family, or [01:09:48] just trying to make it through the [01:09:49] damn week. [01:09:50] The question [01:09:51] is: what do you [01:09:52] have underneath [01:09:53] you when you get [01:09:54] knocked down? [01:09:55] And that's where this [01:09:56] conversation about [01:09:57] the Constitution got [01:09:58] real [01:09:59] interesting to me, [01:10:00] because I'm still [01:10:01] fifty-fifty on the 28th [01:10:02] Amendment idea.

I [01:10:03] see the argument [01:10:04] for it. I also [01:10:05] see why people would [01:10:06] be nervous about [01:10:07] opening up a [01:10:08] document that has been the [01:10:09] foundation of this country [01:10:10] for damn near [01:10:11] 240 years. [01:10:12] [01:10:13] But I think Tom [01:10:14] made one thing [01:10:15] very clear. [01:10:16] This isn't just about [01:10:17] changing words on [01:10:18] a piece of paper. [01:10:19] It's about [01:10:20] whether we're willing to look at [01:10:21] the systems we [01:10:22] built and honestly [01:10:23] ask, "Are [01:10:24] they still doing what [01:10:25] they're supposed to [01:10:26] be doing?"[01:10:27]

And that's a question we [01:10:28] should be able to [01:10:29] ask without [01:10:30] immediately turning it [01:10:31] into a Democrats [01:10:32] versus Republicans, [01:10:33] a left [01:10:34] versus right, a [01:10:35] conservative versus [01:10:36] liberal, or [01:10:37] this side versus that [01:10:38] side. Because [01:10:39] if you can't even [01:10:40] ask whether [01:10:41] something is working, [01:10:42] how the hell are you [01:10:43] even supposed to fix [01:10:44] it?

[01:10:45] And maybe that's the [01:10:46] bigger takeaway from [01:10:47] this entire [01:10:48] conversation. Whether you [01:10:49] agree with Tom's 28th [01:10:50] Amendment idea or [01:10:51] not, he put [01:10:52] something on the table that I [01:10:53] think all of us [01:10:54] need to think about. [01:10:55] [01:10:56] What do we owe [01:10:57] each other? [01:10:58] Not just what [01:10:59] does this government [01:11:00] owe us, [01:11:01] not just what does an [01:11:02] individual owe [01:11:03] themselves, [01:11:04] but what do we owe [01:11:05] each [01:11:06] other as [01:11:07] citizens?

[01:11:08] Because if somebody comes [01:11:09] home from prison and [01:11:10] we tell them they need to [01:11:11] do better, [01:11:12] but we make it damn [01:11:13] near impossible [01:11:14] for them to rebuild, [01:11:15] [01:11:16] what exactly are we [01:11:17] asking for? [01:11:18] If somebody is [01:11:19] working but still can't [01:11:20] afford a roof over [01:11:21] their head, are [01:11:22] we really gonna [01:11:23] reduce that person's [01:11:24] entire situation [01:11:25] to get a [01:11:26] job?[01:11:27]

And if we're [01:11:28] going to hand the [01:11:29] next generation a [01:11:30] constitution, [01:11:31] a government, [01:11:32] and a country, [01:11:33] shouldn't we at [01:11:34] least be willing to [01:11:35] periodically [01:11:36] ask whether we're handing [01:11:37] them something that [01:11:38] actually works for the [01:11:39] world they're living [01:11:40] in? [01:11:41] Look, [01:11:42] I don't have the [01:11:43] answer to all of that, [01:11:44] and [01:11:45] honestly, I don't think [01:11:46] this show needs to.[01:11:47]

Sometimes the [01:11:48] point of a [01:11:49] conversation isn't to tell you [01:11:50] what to think, [01:11:51] it's to give you [01:11:52] something worth [01:11:53] thinking about, [01:11:54] and Tom [01:11:55] definitely did that today. [01:11:56] So I wanna [01:11:57] thank Tom for coming [01:11:58] on, for sharing his [01:11:59] experiences, and for [01:12:00] putting his idea [01:12:01] into the marketplace [01:12:02] of [01:12:03] ideas where people can [01:12:04] challenge it, [01:12:05] question it, [01:12:06] support it, [01:12:07] or reject [01:12:08] it. And I want you [01:12:09] to do the same [01:12:10] thing. Don't [01:12:11] just listen to this [01:12:12] conversation and move on. [01:12:13] Think about it. [01:12:14] Talk [01:12:15] about it. And [01:12:16] if you disagree, [01:12:17] tell me [01:12:18] why. Because that's [01:12:19] how we're [01:12:20] supposed to be doing [01:12:21] all of this. [01:12:22] We don't have to [01:12:23] agree on everything. [01:12:24] [01:12:25] Yeah, but we do have to [01:12:26] have a [01:12:27] conversation. [01:12:28] But here's the uncomfortable [01:12:29] part people don't want to talk [01:12:30] [01:12:31] about.

A system doesn't [01:12:32] become good [01:12:33] simply because [01:12:34] we've had it for a long [01:12:35] time. [01:12:36] Sometimes you have [01:12:37] to stop, [01:12:38] take a look at [01:12:39] what you've built, [01:12:40] and ask whether [01:12:41] it's still serving the [01:12:42] people it's supposed [01:12:43] to serve. [01:12:44] [01:12:45] That's what we [01:12:46] talked about today, [01:12:47] and [01:12:48] that's [01:12:49] always worth [01:12:50] thinking about. [01:12:51] [01:12:52] Ladies and gentlemen, [01:12:53] I want to thank you for [01:12:54] listening.

I [01:12:55] want to thank you for [01:12:56] watching, and [01:12:57] until next [01:12:58] time, as [01:12:59] always, [01:13:00] [01:13:01] I'll [01:13:02] holla

[01:13:03] Woo. That was a [01:13:04] hell of a show. [01:13:05] Thank you for [01:13:06] rocking with us here on [01:13:07] Unsolicited Perspectives [01:13:08] with Bruce Anthony. [01:13:09] Now, before you [01:13:10] go, don't forget to [01:13:11] follow, [01:13:12] subscribe, [01:13:13] like, [01:13:14] comment, and share [01:13:15] our podcast. [01:13:16] Wherever you're listening or [01:13:17] watching it to it, pass [01:13:18] it along to your friends. [01:13:19] If you enjoy it, [01:13:20] that means the people that you [01:13:21] rock, we'll [01:13:22] enjoy it also.

So [01:13:23] share the wealth, [01:13:24] share the knowledge, [01:13:25] share the [01:13:26] noise. [01:13:27] For all those [01:13:28] people that say, well, I [01:13:29] don't have a YouTube. If [01:13:30] you have a Gmail account, [01:13:31] you have a YouTube. [01:13:32] Subscribe to our [01:13:33] YouTube channel where you can [01:13:34] actually watch our video [01:13:35] podcast and [01:13:36] YouTube exclusive [01:13:37] content. [01:13:38] But the real party [01:13:39] is on our Patreon [01:13:40] page after [01:13:41] Hours Uncensored and [01:13:42] talking straight ish [01:13:43] after Hours.

Uncensored [01:13:44] is another show with my [01:13:45] sister, and [01:13:46] once again, the [01:13:47] key word there is [01:13:48] uncensored. Those [01:13:49] are exclusively on [01:13:50] our Patreon page. [01:13:51] Jump onto our [01:13:52] [01:13:53] [01:13:54] website@unsolicitedperspective.com for [01:13:55] all things us. [01:13:56] That's where you can get all of [01:13:57] our audio [01:13:58] video, our [01:13:59] blogs. And even buy our [01:14:00] merch. And if you [01:14:01] really feel [01:14:02] generous and want to help [01:14:03] us out, you can [01:14:04] donate on our [01:14:05] donations page.[01:14:06]

Donations go [01:14:07] strictly to [01:14:08] improving our software and [01:14:09] hardware so [01:14:10] we can keep giving you [01:14:11] guys good [01:14:12] content that you can [01:14:13] clearly listen [01:14:14] to and that you can [01:14:15] clearly see. So [01:14:16] any donation would be [01:14:17] appreciative. Most [01:14:18] importantly, I [01:14:19] wanna say thank [01:14:20] you, thank [01:14:21] you, thank [01:14:22] you for [01:14:23] listening and watching [01:14:24] and supporting us, [01:14:25] and I'll catch you [01:14:26] next time.[01:14:27]

Audi [01:14:28] 5,000 [01:14:29] [01:14:30] [01:14:31] [01:14:32] [01:14:33] Peace.