[00:00:00] Voices for Change: Black Women, Faith & Health Equity 🎙️🙏🏾💥

[00:00:00] Bruce Anthony: Why do black women face far higher risks when it comes to medical attention and how faith, community and policy can work together for change? We gonna get into it. Let's get it.

[00:00:11]

[00:00:21] Welcome to Unsolicited Perspectives 🎙️

[00:00:21] Bruce Anthony: Welcome. First of all, welcome. This is Unsolicited Perspectives. I'm your host, Bruce Anthony. Here to lead the conversation in important events and [00:00:30] topics that are shaping today's society. Join the conversation and follow us however you get your audio podcast.

[00:00:34] Bruce Anthony: Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcast, YouTube exclusive content and our YouTube membership. Rate review, like, comment, share, share with your friends, share with your family. Hell even share with your enemies.

[00:00:47] Black Women & Healthcare: Dr. Wylin Wilson Interview 🎙️💔

[00:00:47] Bruce Anthony: On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Wayland d Wilson, author of Women as Bioethics.

[00:00:54] Bruce Anthony: We'll be talking about black maternal health crisis, why black women face higher risk, [00:01:00] and how faith and policy can drive change. But that's enough of the intro. Let's get to the show.

[00:01:06]

[00:01:14] Bruce Anthony: My guest today is Dr. Whalen d Wilson, associate Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity School, where she teaches in Theology, medicine and Culture initiative. She's the author of Economic Ethics and the Black Church, and her latest book, women is [00:01:30] Bioethics, social Justice, spirituality, and the Black Women's Health.

[00:01:33] Bruce Anthony: Dr. Wilson's work focuses on intersection of bioethics, gender theology, and racial justice with particular attention to the black maternal health crisis in the us. She's also leading a research project on the role of the black church in addressing racial inequalities in health. I'm honored to have her on the show today. That's enough of me talking. Let's get to the interview. So, as I said at the top, I'm here with Dr. Wilson. Dr. Wilson, I want to thank you [00:02:00] for joining me and my audience. This conversation that we're about to have, I feel is very important and I, it's a, it's my pleasure to have you on the show today.

[00:02:11] Dr Wylin Wilson: Thank you. It is wonderful to be here.

[00:02:14] Bruce Anthony: Okay, so let, I always start these interviews off with a question of how it all begins. So you've built a career at an intersection of bioethics, theology, and gender. Can you share a little bit about your journey from your childhood to your [00:02:30] academic career to getting to this point? How did you get to this very unique path?

[00:02:35] Dr. Wilson's Journey: From Family Love to Bioethics 💝

[00:02:35] Dr Wylin Wilson: Hmm. No, that's, oh, thank you. Um, yeah, so my journey, um, I'll say. It began with just a whole bunch of love.

[00:02:48] Bruce Anthony: Mm.

[00:02:48] Dr Wylin Wilson: family is, I mean, some of the most loving people you'll ever meet. Um, wild folk, loud

[00:02:57] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:58] Dr Wylin Wilson: loving folk [00:03:00] who taught me the significance of loving and caring for other folk in our community, um, who taught me how to, you know. put myself first in the sense of, you know, I'm, so, you know how

[00:03:15] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:16] Dr Wylin Wilson: a lot these days, unfortunately, people who, you know, I'm so self important, you know, like it's all about me, you know? But thank God I was in, uh, a family of people who believed in serving others, um, and, and who [00:03:30] believed in, in. Putting others first, not, not to the detriment of themselves, you know, not, not that kind of, uh, dangerous, self sacrificial kind of, um, love, but just a true. and care for community and for, and, and just this, this embrace of, of the, the gift that life is to us,

[00:03:56] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:03:56] Dr Wylin Wilson: It is just such a gift to be a [00:04:00] part of the human family

[00:04:02] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:04:03] Dr Wylin Wilson: and to be sustained by. The Earth. Right? That's another gift. The sustenance that the earth gives us, you know, the nourishment through food, you know, um, just all that we receive as a gift in this life. And so, um, to honor that and, and to, to, to to give back to others. Yeah. how it started

[00:04:29] Bruce Anthony: [00:04:30] That's how it starts.

[00:04:31] Dr Wylin Wilson: That's how.

[00:04:33] Bruce Anthony: so it starts with your family. But eventually you progress through middle school, high school, and you get to college. Was there a moment, was there a moment that you said, aha, this is, this is the the direction I want my life to go in.

[00:04:48] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. I, I will say, um, before, I'll, I'll say even before college, you know, I grew up hearing, because I'm a child. I, I'm, I'm a child that was born just 10 [00:05:00] years after, uh, the desegregation of. Hospitals right. Of public hospitals. Um, and we talk about, you know, desegregation of school

[00:05:12] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:13] Dr Wylin Wilson: and restaurants and, you know, other public facilities.

[00:05:15] Dr Wylin Wilson: But we don't talk about just how much damage has done, how, how much death occurred, uh, in black communities and even among poor whites, um, during segregation. Uh, because [00:05:30] these minoritized individuals, uh, were not. Served by, you know, the medical system. And so I grew up hearing these stories, horror stories um, black folks who. With two medical facilities for care, um, but where care was lacking because of that intersection, right, of race and health.

[00:05:56] Bruce Anthony: Mm.

[00:05:57] Dr Wylin Wilson: And so hearing those stories [00:06:00] about how our medical system failed, black folk failed poor folk, right? That really, really helped me, uh, to develop this, this understanding that, you know, these institutions that we build as a society, um, can do so much damage when we don't have. People prioritized, or when [00:06:30] we have only some folk prioritized.

[00:06:33] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: Um, and so, so that I think was really important and that really helped to form me and form my understanding about, you know, how, how we should be thinking about how institutions work. And so by the time I got to college, um, I, I, uh, majored in agriculture.

[00:06:52] Dr Wylin Wilson: I am truly. Uh, a daughter of the soil, if you will.

[00:06:56] Bruce Anthony: Okay.

[00:06:57] Dr Wylin Wilson: I could literally, if I could literally, I kid you [00:07:00] not just go and have myself a little farm somewhere,

[00:07:04] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:04] Dr Wylin Wilson: that, you know? But in the meantime, I just try my hand at gardening and whatnot, but. But I truly love agriculture and I majored in, uh, agricultural business at the Florida Agricultural Mechanical University.

[00:07:17] Bruce Anthony: Ooh. Okay.

[00:07:18] Dr Wylin Wilson: so I am a Rattler gr orange and green blood flows through these veins. I'm telling you right now, they gave me my foundation and, and I love FMU, um, for that. yeah, so, so, [00:07:30] you know, majoring in agriculture, um, and, and then going on. Majoring in agriculture, uh, agricultural economics, right? So I come outta college with this clear understanding that the solution to problems is this kind of economic solution.

[00:07:49] Dr Wylin Wilson: You know, 'cause it, and, and we hear that a lot, right? Well, if there's a problem, you know, well if for poverty, you know, people need more money, they need jobs and all that. Yes. I'm not saying that's not true. [00:08:00] Um, but one of the things I learned the ground in communities, and particularly when I was working at the Bioethics Center, um, in Tuskegee, I got a chance to really learn that yes, we, we need to be, um, concerned with economics, but my goodness, if people are sick, they cannot work.

[00:08:24] Hospital Segregation: A Hidden History Revealed 🏥

[00:08:24] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:25] Dr Wylin Wilson: If we're not taking care of the health of individuals, [00:08:30] then they are at such a great disadvantage, um, when it comes to even trying to take advantage of opportunities that, uh, they're in the community. So, so, so I really got this beautiful understanding, um. Of, of just seeing how everything works together. And that's, that's how I got to bioethics, right? Because, you know, here I am, I was always, through my graduate program, I was looking at community economic development, the [00:09:00] importance of that, right? And the role of the church and that. So I was really sold on that and, and I still think it's super important.

[00:09:06] Dr Wylin Wilson: I'm still very much. Um, uh, someone who advocates for that, but we have to at the same time, attend to the health disparities that exist in our communities and in minoritized communities, broadly in this nation.

[00:09:22] Bruce Anthony: So you brought up something interesting at the top and you know, the, the, my audience knows I'm a historian, right? Degree [00:09:30] in history from the University of Maryland, go Turks. But, uh, but as I've gotten older. I'm learning even with my history knowledge, my American history knowledge, and even the knowledge that I know about the civil rights, you just informed me that hospitals were segregated.

[00:09:50] Bruce Anthony: Now I figured that we, black people were always getting poor care. I didn't know that the hospitals were actually [00:10:00] segregated, which I guess would make sense if you segregate in restaurants, bathrooms, water fountains. Why would you not segregate hospitals? So when did. Hospitals during the civil rights movement become desegregated.

[00:10:14] Dr Wylin Wilson: Right, right, right. So, um, thank goodness, thankfully, um, hospitals became desegregated, uh, close to like 1964. Right.

[00:10:25] Bruce Anthony: Okay.

[00:10:25] Dr Wylin Wilson: there was a very important, uh, court case, a Supreme Court case. [00:10:30] Simpkins versus, uh, Moses h Co. Memorial Hospital. Um, it was really instrumental in the desegregation of hospitals, and it was, uh, some, some doctors, some black doctors, uh, here actually, um, in, in the state of North Carolina. But, um, yeah. It, it George, Dr. George Simpkins. Um, his patient was denied admission actually, uh, into a hospital. And so he filed a lawsuit, [00:11:00] uh, because, you know, the hospital was receiving state and federal funds via the, the Hill of Burton Act, uh, hill Burton Act in 1946. Right? But, but anyway, but the, the point is, um, is that this was. This just denying people care because of the color of their skin was really, it was prevalent. I mean, um, remember when my, so my father grew up during segregation and [00:11:30] he said, you know, he said, you know, when, when my mom would take me to the hospital, said there was a white waiting room and there's a black waiting room. the white waiting room. There was carpet on the floors, nice cushy chairs, and it was just beautiful walls were painted. He said in the black waiting room was kind of like, like back in the back where you had to go around the floor was, it was unfinished. It was like dirty dirt and concrete, right? Lawn chairs thrown in there, no paint on the walls.

[00:11:57] Dr Wylin Wilson: He said, you know, and so it was very [00:12:00] interesting because you know, here you are in a place to get care. And as soon as you walk in, everything is screaming, we, we don't care about you.

[00:12:10] Bruce Anthony: Screaming prison is what you're describing. Sounds like prison. Yeah.

[00:12:14] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes, yes. And even in some, and so it's interesting, I, I even wrote in the book about how, um. In one place in particular, there was not a hospital that even served African Americans, and so [00:12:30] they actually put them, they, they, you know, would put them into prison if they were sick.

[00:12:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: Right. Because that's where, that's a, that's, that was a place that they had available. So it's just, I mean, so it's just, it's just wild when you look at the history of, you know, medicine. It is really insane to see, um, what black folks have suffered, what, what minoritized individuals have, have suffered. Um, and so, yeah, so, [00:13:00] so, because you know, at first when there were no black, uh, hospitals, um, and then, you know, blacks weren't being really served within, you know, hospitals, um, that meant that. folk who were trying to be doctors didn't have a place. For their training. Right. And so that meant then, so we needed, we needed black hospitals

[00:13:25] The Black Church's Legacy of Healthcare & Community Care ⛪

[00:13:25] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:26] Dr Wylin Wilson: and, uh, black nursing schools because of [00:13:30] course, you know, black women at the time, it was majority, you know, women, right.

[00:13:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: Were not allowed. Um, and, and white nursing schools. So, so it was really beautiful. It's, I love that history of black hospitals and black churches because, uh, and, and, and a lot of black women, you know. From black churches and, um, the Black Club Women's Movement, a lot of those women were raising money, right? Um, putting, scraping those pennies, dimes, nickels, scraping all that money together to help [00:14:00] establish. Black hospitals, black nursing schools. You know, it's just a beautiful history of how our institutions within the black community a powerful legacy of care. and, and particularly the black church.

[00:14:17] Dr Wylin Wilson: And I, I also, you know, wrote about that in the book of our, that the black church has a legacy of care. And, and in these times that we are in right now, I think now more than ever. [00:14:30] We really need to lean into legacy of care, Because we, we have to, we really have to, um, to, you know. Pick up where the shortfall is, you know, with a lot of the policy changes that have been made under this administration.

[00:14:50] Dr Wylin Wilson: I mean, it's just so much. A lot of the rollbacks even, um, with environmental protections, a lot of minoritized communities are [00:15:00] going to be very much, uh, affected by a lot of the rollbacks in environmental protective policies. So it's time that means then our institutions. Need to really and truly lean into that legacy of care because we, we have to do it for ourselves. We really do.

[00:15:22] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. And for the audience out there, I just wanna put something in perspective for you. So you said the desegregation of hospitals was [00:15:30] in 1964. That was 61 years ago. For some people, that's one generation

[00:15:36] Dr Wylin Wilson: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:37] Bruce Anthony: listening, that's one generation. For some people, that's two generations. For me, that was my mom and dad's generation.

[00:15:43] Bruce Anthony: For some people to listen. It was your grandparents' generation. That's not that long ago. That's so when people say, oh, that was so long ago. It's not that long ago. It really is not that long ago.

[00:15:54]

[00:16:02] Bruce Anthony: You bring something up and you were talking about black people as a whole, but I, I want to get gender specific here.

[00:16:08] Bruce Anthony: So black women in America, phase maternity mortality rates more than twice the number of white women. From your perspective, what are the biggest factors driving this crisis? Driving this crisis?

[00:16:26] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes. So, um, there, [00:16:30] there are several, uh, one, one of the biggest factors the, the actual, I call it the, the normalization of black suffering.

[00:16:41] Bruce Anthony: Hmm. Okay.

[00:16:43] Dr Wylin Wilson: And, and that began, I mean, that began in the, with the, with the literal birth of this nation, right? With uh, enslavement. The suffering of black people has been normalized, and we've not come, we've [00:17:00] not come out of that.

[00:17:00] Dr Wylin Wilson: We've, in fact, in fact, we, we literally continue to live in that and live into to that. Um, because the fact that health disparities are what they are in this country that, that black women, um, are. Actually, you know, half of black women have, uh, 20 years and older have hypertension, right? Um, heart disease is the leading cause of death. Uh, [00:17:30] black women are more likely than white women to be diagnosed with diabetes. They're understudied in healthcare, you know, and you already mentioned the, uh, maternal mortality statistic, you know, and, and we haven't even scraped the surface of getting to maternal mental. Health,

[00:17:48] Bruce Anthony: Mm.

[00:17:49] Dr Wylin Wilson: issues, right?

[00:17:50] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:51] Dr Wylin Wilson: all of this compounded, right?

[00:17:53] Dr Wylin Wilson: And, and now these, these disparities, they, they didn't just pop up a few [00:18:00] years ago, right? Like our health disparities in this nation have been consistent, So, so the reality is, is that we have, we are so desensitized to black suffering. And that's the fir and that's the first step. That is the, that is to me, the first, the first thing that I think we really have to deal with.

[00:18:24] Normalizing Black Suffering: The Root of Health Disparities 💔

[00:18:24] Dr Wylin Wilson: Because, because one of the things that, that I know and I even noticed you, you know, listening [00:18:30] to people, uh, in your community, when folks talk about, you know. Our health disparities that, that black folk experience. And, and it's almost, you know, like people kinda shrug their shoulders like, well, yeah, that's the way things are.

[00:18:45] Dr Wylin Wilson: No, we should, we should literally be, outraged at the statistics. Of the health disparities that exist. Right. Um, this should be an urgent, this should be something that is [00:19:00] urgent for us, right? We should feel a sense of urgency because it should be No, no. People shouldn't be suffering like this. No one black, uh, brown, you know, I mean, immigrant, nobody should be suffering like this. And so, so I think, you know, that is one, factor, right? But then another factor is that a, a lot of times we have, [00:19:30] you know, these disparities that exist, health disparities that exist, cannot, of course, be attributed to just our behavioral differences. Right, or, or biology. We know that we can't attribute just. You know, to that. Um, but really and truly there's been consistently a pervasive devaluation of minoritized bodies.

[00:19:53] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:55] Dr Wylin Wilson: right, until we come to terms with that, I think we will still find [00:20:00] ourselves struggling with health disparities right. In, in years

[00:20:05] Bruce Anthony: How.

[00:20:06] Dr Wylin Wilson: Um, but also, go ahead.

[00:20:08] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:09] Bruce Anthony: No, how. Okay, so that seems like, and, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it kind of seems like when we talk about, when you give the example of people saying, well, that's how it is, that there is, there is a sense of fatigue.

[00:20:27] Dr Wylin Wilson: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:28] Bruce Anthony: not just the black [00:20:30] community, but in all marginalized communities, a sense of fatigue for constantly having to fight.

[00:20:36] Bruce Anthony: And you're right, this is urgent. We need to breathe more life into the fight. And keep on fighting. But how do you do that? Because I, I, when people look at things now, I don't think they look at it in the lens of history, right? Life is, life is learned by looking at the past, but living for the future. [00:21:00] So.

[00:21:01] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. Weird.

[00:21:02] Bruce Anthony: don't understand that in this present moment, there's a whole history behind a fight and it's just a fatigue. Like how, how, how much can you fight? So how can we energize the fight for those people that are just like, oh, this is, this is how it is.

[00:21:19] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. No, no, no. I, I hear what you're saying and that's a beautiful point. And, and that, and that is, that truly is the struggle, right? Um, because, you [00:21:30] know. Especially if you look at it kind of through this justice lens, right? Because people are like, look, you know, we've been trying to fight for justice and it seems like when you make two steps forward, you, you are also making three steps back at

[00:21:45] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:46] Dr Wylin Wilson: Right? And, and I think. really important, a, a really important notion, a way of seeing this is, is looking at justice as kind of beyond this notion of just fair treatment, but [00:22:00] to a notion of, of faithfulness to the demands of a relationship. You know, a lot of times. When we talk about hope, 'cause a lot of people will say, oh, we just gotta have hope. We do have to hope for the future. We really do. but we can't see hope as, as an event. Like it's just, you know, something that's going to happen like we and, and, and we can't see it as only connected to just merely our circumstances either, right? [00:22:30] has to be, uh,

[00:22:32] Fighting Fatigue: How Love Fuels the Fight for Justice ✊

[00:22:32] Dr Wylin Wilson: squarely center in love What I love, I will always have the energy to fight for. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, come on now, you know, I'm mama bear.

[00:22:48] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:48] Dr Wylin Wilson: don't come for don't come for Mama Bear babies

[00:22:51] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:52] Dr Wylin Wilson: that talk about some energy

[00:22:53] Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

[00:22:54] Dr Wylin Wilson: up. got, I'm as energized as you ever gonna see. [00:23:00] I'm just saying, you know what I'm

[00:23:01] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:02] Dr Wylin Wilson: And so, so yeah, so, so, so kind of, you know, really centering. Right. The significance of the demands of a relationship, that that's where justice has to be for us. Um, and, and in the midst of that, that, that hope that we have, right? Um, it's really and truly living into that. And I, and I really think, you know, and this is gonna sound a, this may sound a little crazy, but, but we need to [00:23:30] fall in love with each other as, as communities, as, as humans, right? Just being able to look into the face of another and, and truly with, with all of the fallacies of foibles, all of the, you know, all of the, um, the imperfections, but truly being able. To love and I don't think, you know, I don't think we even talk about that kind of powerful love. I ain't talking about that [00:24:00] romantic stuff that's everywhere and all the songs are talking about, but I mean, you know, that kind of love that, you know, for me as a person of faith that is, is, is mirrored in, you know, this, this faithfulness. Right to one another. the, the faithfulness that that divine mystery

[00:24:24] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:24:25] Dr Wylin Wilson: blesses us with every day, my God, man, we walk outside, the sun is [00:24:30] shining. Even on a rainy day, the sun is shining. You can't see it 'cause of the clouds, but the

[00:24:33] Bruce Anthony: Right.

[00:24:33] Dr Wylin Wilson: is shining.

[00:24:34] Bruce Anthony: Right.

[00:24:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: saying?

[00:24:35] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:24:36] Dr Wylin Wilson: are literally, we are fed. Right by, you know, we have vegetables, we have fruits, all of the, you know, that is, that is divine mystery. That is a loving creator. Always, always loving and caring and giving and gifting us every day. So I'm saying, you know, that, that us mirroring that kind of [00:25:00] relationship to one another. Right. And, and as a sister, a sister of mine, um, a sister here, um, uh, Lydia Munoz. She, uh, was just doing a, a beautiful kind of word today talking about how we need to be sanctuary for one another, right? Yeah. Showing up in the world as somebody saying, what does it even look like for me to, to be sanctuary for, for somebody in my community? You know what I'm [00:25:30] saying? Like that kind of love, that kind of love that really makes us wake up and say, you know. What do I owe to those around me what's owed me? 'cause, 'cause a lot of times we, we, we really, we may not con, you know, think of it that way all the time of what is owed to me and what do I owe

[00:25:55] Bruce Anthony: Right. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:56] Dr Wylin Wilson: But that's important. It's important to think about that, right? [00:26:00] Because we really do have a moral responsibility to one another.

[00:26:04] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:06] Dr Wylin Wilson: care for each other. We have a hand in each other's health.

[00:26:09] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] We Are Sanctuary: Our Moral Responsibility to Each Other 🕊️

[00:26:10] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. And that's why, and, and I'm gonna tell you, that's why I wrote, that's why I wrote my book. That is exactly why I wrote my book. Because, um, and my book is not just for black women, right? Black women is just the starting point. It's just, it's just a starting point.

[00:26:26] Dr Wylin Wilson: It's to contextualize, uh, the issue [00:26:30] of, of health disparities and how that is, um, also, you know, combined with, you know, spirituality, um, and economic systems and healthcare systems, all of these things, you know, work together. And so I contextualized it with, you know, the experience of black women, but it is truly about, you know, our story as black women. Is so much intertwined and connected to your story, know, uh, and other. [00:27:00] stories, whether they're African American, whether they're, you know, Latino, um, whether they're Native American. Our stories are so very much connected, and I think that's one of the biggest lies that's being told to us, you know now, is that we are so different from each other that, you know, we don't have stuff in common.

[00:27:18] Dr Wylin Wilson: We have a whole lot in common. And you being a historian, you know that,

[00:27:22] Bruce Anthony: Yes.

[00:27:23] Dr Wylin Wilson: how, how these threads come together.

[00:27:25] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about your book and, and [00:27:30] please, you've explained a, a little bit, let's dive into it a little bit more. The crucial aspect of why it's not centered. Black women experiences are not the center part, but why centering. Um, it's so crucial. And what does this practice that you talk about in your book, what does it look like?

[00:27:55] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it is really, it [00:28:00] is, it is. so significant. For me, the

[00:28:03] Bruce Anthony: Bef before we, before we, before we get started, let's tell everybody the title of your book. We plug, we plug in your book, you know, go out there and buy the book. They need to know what the book is, so that's a failure on my part. The book is Women is Bioethics.

[00:28:24] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes,

[00:28:25] Bruce Anthony: All right. All right.

[00:28:27] Dr Wylin Wilson: yes, that's right. Women is bioethics, [00:28:30] social justice, spirituality, and black women's health.

[00:28:33] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: and you know, and the reason why I wrote it, you know, is because, um. In order for us to, to really get like this adequate understanding of, of what justice actually means in human relations, right? It, it requires that we, we start with the needs of those most vulnerable among us, you know, and, and by listening to those who are vulnerable. [00:29:00] Among us, we can get a fuller sense of what our concepts that we, you know, that we throw around every day. Like neighbor, love and respect and dignity, right? Child of God, we can get a, a real, uh, clear concept, uh, clear, fuller sense of what those concepts mean. And, and so I try to really demonstrate. In this book is that to prioritize the perspectives of those who are vulnerable for the sake of the common [00:29:30] good doesn't devalue the gifts of folk who consider themselves, you know, not to be vulnerable, right?

[00:29:36] Dr Wylin Wilson: But it acknowledges the necessity of the gift of solidarity. And that's what's important, right? This, this, this realization of. How we are absolutely connected, uh, how our stories are connected, right? And, and, and my book actually, it does show that the lives of, of black [00:30:00] women actually testify, uh, to the current state of the healthcare system, right? And, and that it doesn't, doesn't just testify, but it. Also interpret and critiques it, right? Yeah. and critiques it. And, and so, um, that's why for me it was, it was really important to include these different narratives, the [00:30:30] stories. Yeah. It was very important to include these different stories so that, so that people reading it could, could actually, could get a sense of, of, you know. What's going on in the lives of people who are being underserved within our healthcare system. You know, uh, folks who I say are on the underside, right, on the underside of, of our food systems. [00:31:00] Um, not just healthcare systems, but uh, even, even our economic systems. You know, so, so that's, that's really, really important and, and I think that's. One of the places where we really have to have to do a, a better job of really seeing, um, how we are responsible for, uh, one another's health and, and wellbeing. Full stop.

[00:31:27] Women is Bioethics: Centering the Vulnerable for Common Good 📚

[00:31:27] Bruce Anthony: So you're not speaking solely to [00:31:30] equality here. You're speaking to equity, which are two different things. Um, when you're talking about marginalized, that's the reason why it, it to me. It seems like you've made a very clear point. We're not saying one is more important than the other, but what we are saying as there are people who are.

[00:31:49] Bruce Anthony: Underserved that even if you did equal, it still wouldn't make up for the fact that they've been underserved for so long. So we're not talking, not solely talking [00:32:00] about equality. We're talking about equity.

[00:32:02] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes.

[00:32:03]

[00:32:11] Bruce Anthony: You emphasize a lot in your book about the role of black church and, and specifically for advocating for health equity.

[00:32:20] Bruce Anthony: That's a point, ladies, gentlemen, equity, what unique strengths does the black church bring to this fight?

[00:32:29] The Black Church's Unique Strengths in Health Advocacy 🙏

[00:32:29] Dr Wylin Wilson: Mm-hmm. [00:32:30] Yes. So, um, think a very important strength. Is, uh, definitely the, this legacy, uh, legacy of care, right? Um, because, 'cause the black church was there, black church being really like the first, uh, real institution in the

[00:32:55] Bruce Anthony: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:06] Dr Wylin Wilson: you know, kind of in, in secret 'cause 'cause it was of course against the law for us to, to gather and stuff that was scared of slave revolts and all that. But, but, so that black church was always there during doing that kind of that. Care work, kind of bringing folks together, um, caring for the souls of folk, but even the bodies as well, you know, and so, [00:33:30] so the true, real resource that these communities have is first and foremost, they are, they are right there on the ground, right? So I call 'em the first responders, uh, because when it comes to issues like, so take the issue of maternal mental health. um, black women suffer disproportionately from, uh, maternal, uh, mental health issues. And black [00:34:00] folks, uh, have real, I mean, talk about a disparity when it comes to access to mental healthcare services. So, so they go, A lot of times they'll go to that pastor first, right?

[00:34:15] Bruce Anthony: okay.

[00:34:15] Dr Wylin Wilson: is not equipped, who is not a therapist, and we gotta be clear about that. They need to refer

[00:34:22] Bruce Anthony: I, I say that all the time. Your pastor can give you religious guidance, but if you need mental health, you gotta go to a [00:34:30] mental health professional. So I, there are gonna be some men that are gonna be watching this that don't understand what maternal mental health is. Can you explain what that is and can you explain why black women experience it at a higher rate than other women?

[00:34:53] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah, so it, so oftentimes after a woman has given birth, um, in [00:35:00] kind of the. Because one, within a one year period, a woman can go through something called postpartum depression. Oh my goodness. This is real. Where a woman can feel, 'cause you know, you see the beautiful images of mama with the baby, you know, and you can tell that there's that loving connection.

[00:35:21] Dr Wylin Wilson: But postpartum com, uh, depression can make a woman feel so much sorrow, so much so, so, so they can struggle with [00:35:30] even feeling a sense of connection to their own child. Right. and so, so yeah. So these, these symptoms of depression, will surface. And, um, there, there some women, they don't even wanna leave the house, right?

[00:35:47] Dr Wylin Wilson: They can't because depression is real, right? So they can't even bring themselves to care for themselves, let alone a child. And, and so, so to be able to, [00:36:00] to really. a woman deal with that and get the help that she needs is extremely significant because not just the woman is suffering, but that baby is, is gonna be at risk as well. Um, and so what was the second part of your question? Make

[00:36:19] Bruce Anthony: How, how does the disparity of care

[00:36:23] Dr Wylin Wilson: The spirit of care. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:25] Bruce Anthony: to the disparity between the mental health, the [00:36:30] maternal mental health?

[00:36:31] Maternal Mental Health Crisis in Black Communities 🤰

[00:36:31] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes. So, so there, there, there is, um, it's, it's a, really crazy because. Given the, the, the lack of access, right? Because we have disparities in access to mental healthcare in general for African Americans, right? that just exacerbates this problem of maternal, uh, mental health. And so. [00:37:00] Another thing that is really problematic is, you know, the stereotypes of black women. So if you have, uh, a black woman who she might be going through a divorce or separating from her partner, um, and she has kids, well, she does not want to let it be known that she's suffering mental health. Issues because there are stereotypes, uh, of black [00:37:30] women as bad mothers, you know, out there. Um, and there is research on this, I'm telling you. Um, and so, so women, uh, some of them will not go and get the professional help that they need, You see what I'm

[00:37:45] Bruce Anthony: For fear of being branded where you could possibly lose your kids, is that, is that kind of the connection? Yeah,

[00:37:52] Dr Wylin Wilson: abusing kids. Yes.

[00:37:54] Bruce Anthony: no.

[00:37:55] Dr Wylin Wilson: So, you know, so it's just so, and it's, it's just wild. Like the, the kinds of [00:38:00] complications Right. That end up happening. Um, and then if there's not, you know, uh, concordant care 'cause sometimes. You know, a, a person can get a mental healthcare provider, but if that person doesn't have cultural humility or they really don't understand, you know, culturally, this person, uh, the, the mental healthcare provider actually. Sometimes even do harm, right?

[00:38:29] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:38:29] Dr Wylin Wilson: not [00:38:30] understanding kind of these cultural things that are important, you know? Um, so, so there are just so many, there are so many layers to this issue, right?

[00:38:41] Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Dr Wylin Wilson: layers. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, um. There is a, uh, a mental health, mental health care provider.

[00:38:51] Dr Wylin Wilson: We have partnered in writing an article, uh, together on maternal mental health and the, the, and the [00:39:00] church because we really want to help churches, uh, to really help address the stigma that's associated with mental health. Uh, within, uh, African American and even other minoritized communities, um, but also to, to help these churches to, to, you know, have the resources and take advantage of the resources in the community so that can be helped through these issues.

[00:39:28] Bruce Anthony: Okay. Dr. Wilson, [00:39:30] can you tell me about the Mom Nobus Act? First of all, did I say that right? Second of all, what is it

[00:39:37] Dr Wylin Wilson: And Yes you did.

[00:39:39] Bruce Anthony: all?

[00:39:39] Dr Wylin Wilson: did. It's such a significant piece of legislation, right? It, it, the BU act is a set of bills, um, that set aside, you know. Money. investment that targets maternal mortality and disparities, right?

[00:39:57] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:58] The Momnibus Act & Critical Maternal Health Legislation 📋

[00:39:58] Dr Wylin Wilson: uh, for example, there's [00:40:00] funding, uh, for community organizations to improve, uh, maternal health, uh, for veterans, uh, uh,

[00:40:07] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:08] Dr Wylin Wilson: and, and, and for incarcerated mothers like, I mean, this. of bills is so powerful. Um, and I'm gonna tell you though, given the current, you know, kind of. Policy environment that we are in with so many [00:40:30] rollbacks. Um, my concern is that Bills like the Mom Nibu Act, um, and the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act now, that's another one that we don't really talk about that much. this act actually, um, has, you know, has to do with accommodations, um, on, on a job to help. A woman do her job or a person, a birthing person, do their job. Uh, right. So if you have limitations due due to pregnancy, [00:41:00] uh, or childbirth related medical conditions, this act allows you to do, you know. Telework, you know, uh, you can work remotely.

[00:41:10] Dr Wylin Wilson: Extra bathroom breaks and water breaks. And I know this sound, it sounds like, well, of course, of course people should be able to have this, but we would be surprised at how many, uh, jobs for, for some women. This does not exist. And, and, and that's why the, the fight for [00:41:30] the Pregnancy Workers Fairness Act actually happened, right?

[00:41:33] Dr Wylin Wilson: Because women were really having problems, uh, trying to get, you know, you know, a lighter duty of work and, and the leave, you know, leave for childbirth, um, just the, you know, the, the, the regular leave. But if a woman has these. Extended complications related to pregnancy. You know, these kind of, uh, legislation, I tell you, very important.

[00:41:57] Dr Wylin Wilson: The Mama's first Act is another [00:42:00] one because that's where, you know, we have an amendment to the Social Security Act to allow doulas. And midwives to have to be reimbursed by Medicaid. Right? So, so, so, so our policy environment is so important, you know, and I really just hope that your listeners, you know, folks will get out there, um, learn about these policies and, and learn about them in your particular context, right?

[00:42:26] Dr Wylin Wilson: In your state. Um. And to [00:42:30] see, see if your state is able to, to still support this kind of, of, of legislation because it's so, it's needed, we need it and, and don't quite know if, if it's being supported at this time.

[00:42:46] Bruce Anthony: Wow. Wow. So, Dr. Wilson, you talk about some serious stuff. Some important stuff, but some stuff that people would deem as controversial. Not us, because. They not like us, but, but [00:43:00] not, but you always get pushback when you talk about equality and equity for marginalized groups. What are some of the pushbacks that you've received from your work?

[00:43:17] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah.

[00:43:18] History Under Attack: Why Our Stories Matter Now 📖

[00:43:18] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. You know, it, it is interesting because I, I, history is so important to me [00:43:30] and you know, with us being now in an environment where even history is politicized, is. Is absolutely heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking because, because, you know, history us with the resources, the cognitive resources, when we know someone else's story, when we know, know another group story [00:44:00] that gives us resources to, to have the kind of empathy that is needed. Right to, to, to, to come in solid, to work in solidarity, to, to help us be sanctuary for one another, you know, these kinds of things. You know, that's what's so important. So, so for me, um, I, I really do lament. The fact that, um, we are now in an environment [00:44:30] where, where history is seen, you know, is, is something that is deemed to be dangerous if it, if it's not in a certain package.

[00:44:38] Bruce Anthony: Right.

[00:44:39] Dr Wylin Wilson: and that is, is where I just say, you know, God help us all. help us all. Yeah. 'cause, 'cause that is, history is a powerful thing. And it, and it's such a resource. It's such a resource.

[00:44:54] Bruce Anthony: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because like I said, you learn from the past and you live for the future. [00:45:00] That's my slogan. I stole it from somebody. I don't remember which scholar I stole it from, but I stole it. That's not a Bruce original y'all, but, but I'm rolling with him. Gonna get a tattooed on my, on my chest. Um.

[00:45:12] Dr Wylin Wilson: I love it. That's great. That's great.

[00:45:15] Bruce Anthony: So we've talked about the disparities acts that can be done, and you made a point to say people find out what's going on in your state. My goal of doing this interview is [00:45:30] to always open people's minds to stuff that they didn't even know or think about. Like I said, at the top, historian didn't dawn on me, that of course hospitals would also be segregated.

[00:45:42] Bruce Anthony: But then it comes to a point where you learn this information and then it's what are you going to do about it?

[00:45:49] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes.

[00:45:49] Bruce Anthony: we said, you said not too long ago, find out what's going on in your state, but how can people get involved and start pushing for the [00:46:00] legislation that is needed so that healthcare is equitable across the board?

[00:46:07] Taking Action: Collaboration for Birth Equity & Change 🤝

[00:46:07] Dr Wylin Wilson: Right, right. So, um, definitely I always talk about, you know, awareness first and foremost, right? Uh, but collaboration. We really need to collaborate. We need to, um, aware of who's, who's in our community and what they doing, right? Because we, we have so many, [00:46:30] uh, grassroots organizations that are actually working for working toward, you know, birth equity, right?

[00:46:37] Dr Wylin Wilson: So that, so that people can, um, all birthing people, uh, can have access to. The kind of care that is needed, uh, for, for not just, you know, prenatal care, but the postpartum care, right. So, so there are these, there are these, uh, grassroots organizations within our [00:47:00] communities that are doing the work. Uh, we have Black Mamas Matters Alliance. They are, ooh, they are one of my favorites because they do these, they do these, uh, wonderful conferences every year. And even I, I go, I like to go 'cause I always learn something. Just like you said, you know, we always learning

[00:47:15] Bruce Anthony: Always learning. Yep.

[00:47:17] Dr Wylin Wilson: I'm loving it because they are bringing together, they work, they work according to my philosophy, right?

[00:47:22] Dr Wylin Wilson: Like, I have a philosophy of, you know, we're, we need to bring together. All the different sectors [00:47:30] in our society, in our community. So you get folks from healthcare, you get the church, you get the academy, you get, you know, everybody coming together. Um, and, and literally strategizing of how do, how do we address these problems?

[00:47:46] Dr Wylin Wilson: And so one of the things I did, I had a black maternal health and black church forum. And, um, we, we came together with. We had nurses, physicians, so we had gynecologists, we had public health [00:48:00] professionals, we had midwives, doulas. I mean, we would try to get everybody at the table, the pastors, everybody. And when I tell you, when we came together and I told everybody, I was like, this is a strategy session

[00:48:10] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:48:11] Strategy Session: Bringing All Sectors Together for Care 💪

[00:48:11] Dr Wylin Wilson: lives are hanging in the balance.

[00:48:13] Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

[00:48:14] Dr Wylin Wilson: it's not time for like having a little conference, you know? No, no. We need to come together, strategize. About how do we collaborate, right? Because we all are, we're all doing, uh, you know, a part of caring, you know, the care work that, [00:48:30] that, that, that takes place in our communities. The doctors are doing it on their end.

[00:48:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: The midwives and the doulas doing it on their end. The past is doing it on their, but, but how do we come together and collaborate?

[00:48:40] Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

[00:48:41] Dr Wylin Wilson: Get to know, okay, just what, just what are you doing now and how can I help you do what you do and really try to address these needs. You know, they call it this kind of, um, you know, this beautiful kind of caring for the whole person.

[00:48:58] Dr Wylin Wilson: You know, how do we have this, [00:49:00] this layered. to care, know, working together and coming together and, and finding out what each other doing instead of, because I know sometimes church folk might be a little reticent about the folk in the community, different organizations in the community.

[00:49:19] Dr Wylin Wilson: Different organizations might be reticent when it comes to the church. Like, I don't know about them folk, but you know what? If we can come together and just find out Yeah. What, what do you actually do rather than all of [00:49:30] the, all of the ideas we have about one another.

[00:49:33] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:34] Dr Wylin Wilson: Um, you know, I have a colleague who talks about, uh, to actually engage others in a serious manner is to discover how often we are mistaken about them.

[00:49:47] Bruce Anthony: Yep.

[00:49:47] Dr Wylin Wilson: Right.

[00:49:48] Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:48] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yeah. And so, and so if we, because, because it's very easy to hold on to stereotypes and caricatures rather than really come together and try to say, okay, do you do?

[00:49:59] Bruce Anthony: Right.

[00:49:59] Dr Wylin Wilson: do you do what [00:50:00] you do? And how, how can we line up, you know, with what, what we each do to literally care for the community and people who really need the help.

[00:50:12] Breaking Down Barriers: Discovering We're Mistaken About Each Other 🌉

[00:50:12] Bruce Anthony: I, I love that. That is beautiful. Ladies and gentlemen, that is Dr. Wilson. Dr. Wilson, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. And talking about something that is extremely important. Something that a lot of people just aren't aware of. You know, everybody talks about we're gonna have a baby, [00:50:30] but they don't understand what goes along with it.

[00:50:33] Bruce Anthony: And I think that they've learned that, hey, not just what happens to you, but also what happens to the other lady that's in the next delivery room.

[00:50:42] Dr Wylin Wilson: Yes,

[00:50:42] Bruce Anthony: So I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I know my audience definitely enjoyed this in depth and deep conversation.

[00:50:51] Dr Wylin Wilson: Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure and enjoy.

[00:50:55] Bruce Anthony: It was my pleasure as well. Thank you. Okay, I [00:51:00] think that was good. That was good. Um, so what am I gonna do? I'm going to record the intro and the outro, uh, where I introduce and give more detail for people to be able to find your work. Because that's important. Um, that'll all also be put in the description and all that stuff.

[00:51:21] Bruce Anthony: We're gonna promote all your stuff. I'm gonna start the editing process this weekend 'cause I like to work while it's fresh in my mind.

[00:51:29] Dr Wylin Wilson: Okay,[00:51:30]

[00:51:30] Bruce Anthony: send you that Google Doc and just kind go from there. Was there anything that you wanted to include? I, I think we covered everything. We didn't get to all my questions, but, but in the way that you were talking, you answered the majority of my questions.

[00:51:43] Bruce Anthony: I don't think there was anything there.

[00:51:45] Dr Wylin Wilson: questions. Thank you. They really good questions. I appreciate that.

[00:51:49] Bruce Anthony: Thank you. Um, did you have any other questions or anything like that?

[00:51:54] Dr Wylin Wilson: Mm,

[00:51:54] Bruce Anthony: No, I.

[00:51:55] Dr Wylin Wilson: just deep gratitude.

[00:51:56] Bruce Anthony: As we wrap up this enlightening conversation, I want to extend my [00:52:00] deepest gratitude to Dr. Wilson for sharing her profound insights and experiences with us today. We've journeyed through her remarkable career exploring the intersection of bioethics, theology, and gender. Dug into critical issues of health disparities and the legacy of care within the black community.

[00:52:17] Bruce Anthony: Dr. Wilson's work, particularly her book, the Women is Bioethics, challenges us to rethink justice and equity, urging us to prioritize the needs of most vulnerable among us for the common good. [00:52:30] Her passion for advocating for health equity and her dedication to uplift marginalized voices reminds us of the power of collaboration and community.

[00:52:38] Bruce Anthony: As Dr. Wilson emphasized, it's not just about awareness, but about taking action, engaging with grassroots organizations, supporting critical legislation, and fostering solidarity across all sectors of society. I want to give a heartfelt thank you to Dr. Wilson for her invaluable contributions for inspiring us to be the sanctuary for [00:53:00] one another to our audience.

[00:53:02] Bruce Anthony: I hope this conversation has opened your minds and your hearts to pressing issues we face and the steps that we could take to create a more equitable future,

[00:53:09] Bruce Anthony: a more equitable future. Remember, the journey doesn't end here. Let's continue to learn, engage, and make a difference. I wanna thank you for watching. I want to thank you for listening, and until next time, as always, I'll holler.

[00:53:27] Thank You for Rocking With Us! Subscribe & Share 🎬

[00:53:27] Bruce Anthony: Woo. That was a hell of a show. Thank [00:53:30] you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast. Wherever you're listening or watching it to it, pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock, we'll enjoy it also.

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[00:54:08] Bruce Anthony: Uncensored is another show with my sister, and once again, the key word there is uncensored. Those are exclusively on our Patreon page. Jump onto our website@unsolicitedperspective.com for all things us. That's where you can get all of our audio video, our blogs. And even buy our merch. And if you really feel generous and want to help us out, you can donate on our [00:54:30] donations page.

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[00:54:51] Bruce Anthony: Audi 5,000 Peace.