Bruce Anthony: [00:00:00] We're talking American history, more specifically, black political American history. We gonna get into it.

Meet the Man Who Changed Black Politics Forever 🎙️🔥📚

Bruce Anthony: Let's get it.

Bruce Anthony: Welcome,

Welcome to Unsolicited Perspectives 🎙️🔥

Bruce Anthony: first of all, welcome. This is Unsolicited Perspectives. I'm your host, Bruce Anthony. Here to lead the conversation in important events and topics that are shaping of today's society. Join the conversation and follow us wherever you get your audio podcast. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcast, YouTube exclusive content and our YouTube membership.

Rate review, like, comment, share, share with your friends, share with your family. Hell even share with your enemies. On today's episode,

Why Charles Diggs Jr. Matters—A Conversation with Dr. Orr 🏛️💬🌟

Bruce Anthony: I'll be interviewing Dr. Marian or author of the book, house of Diggs. It's about Charles c Diggs Jr. An important black political figure in America's history that's been forgotten, but we are gonna get into it.[00:01:00]

But that's enough of the intro. Let's get to the show.

Bruce Anthony: My guest is Dr. Marion, or the inaugural Frederick Lipid Professor of Public Policy at Brown University and one of the leading voices of race, urban politics, and black leadership in America. His new book, house of Digs is the first full. Biography of Congressman Charles c Digs, Jr. Michigan's first black member of Congress, a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, and behind the scenes force in the Civil Rights Movement.

Diggs was the first there at the trial of Emmett Till. Killers. Worked along Dr. Martin Luther the King, and helped spark the anti apartment movement in the us. But his legacy is too often been overshadowed by a scandal that ended his career. ORs work uncovers not just the rise and fall of this powerful figure, but also what digs story tells us about race justice leadership [00:02:00] in America today.

So without further ado, here is Dr. Or

as I said at the top, I'm here with Professor Doctor Marian Orr, the author of House of Diggs, as well as. A TURP graduate, got his PhD at the University of Maryland College Park. Dr. Orr, I am so grateful to have you on the show today because we're gonna be talking about your book and your life, and we're gonna be talking about a person that's very, very important, not only in politics, but also in black politics and black history.

So thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Marion Orr: Well, thank you Bruce for having me. I'm very excited about being on your show.

Bruce Anthony: Is it because we're TERP alum?

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes.

Bruce Anthony: All right, so let's jump right into it. You built a remarkable career studying black political leadership and urban politics, but before we dive into your book, I love to start with you. [00:03:00] That's how I start all my interviews. To get a little bit of background on you, what was your upbringing life? What was your upbringing like, and what experience led you to study the intersection of race, politics, and power in America?

From Savannah Streets to Political Science Dreams 🌟📖✊

Dr. Marion Orr: Well, my upbringing was a working class upbringing. I'm from Savannah, Georgia, born and raised in Savannah. And my mom and dad would get working class folk. In fact, my daddy could not read nor nor write. They got married very young and had three children. And I'm with the youngest of the of their, of their three.

And so I was born and raised in Savannah and. I suspect I got interested in government and politics around high school. I was pulled into my civic classes and history classes. Bruce and when I was in high school, a, b, C News hired the [00:04:00] black journalists. Max Robinson.

Max Robinson. Max Robinson was the first black man to anchor a national news. Program. A,

B, c, nightly news.

Bruce Anthony: Uhhuh, he anchored it.

Dr. Marion Orr: That's right. He co-anchor to and, and, and you know, Lester Holt was one that recently was the anchor NBC, but way back in the late seventies, A, B, C hired Max Robinson, a black broadcast journalist. And that thing so impressed me that I would run home every weekday evening. To watch Max Robinson read the news from around the world and from the us and I've become somewhat convinced that watching Mr. Robinson each evening, piqued my interest in government and politics. As I said, [00:05:00] I excelled in civics and history in my high school, and I got involved in local things in Savannah. I helped some people run for city council when I was in high school and I went to college also Bruce in Savannah. I'm a graduate of A-H-B-C-U called Savannah State University. It was called Savannah State College when I was there. And so real quickly at Savannah State, we had on the faculty perhaps. One of the country's most brilliant political scientists, a man named Hayes Walton.

Hayes liked the T-shirt

The Professor Who Created Black Politics as a Field 🎓💡🖤

Dr. Marion Orr: company Hayes. His last name is Walton. Your listeners might, viewers might want to Google Hayes Walton Jr. He was at Savannah State from 1967 to 1992 before he got lured away to [00:06:00] the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Hayes Walton. Was a political scientist who taught black politics. He in fact, helped create the subfield that we now have in political science that we now call black politics. It was Professor Walton who really, in the late sixties, early seventies, began to write about black politics and black American politics. In fact, he published and wrote the first in the Field textbook.

Bruce Anthony: Wow.

Dr. Marion Orr: black politics,

Bruce Anthony: Wow.

Dr. Marion Orr: and I had a wonderful opportunity to work with Dr. Walton since I was 18 years old when I first met him, until he died about 10 years ago. And Walton took me under his wing. And I wanted to be just like [00:07:00] Professor Wal when I was a young man. He published a lot of books and as I said, literally created the subfield of, of of black politics. So so I attributed in, in large part to, for to my, my, my interest here as you, the question you raised to my early interest in high school and, and having the real blessing to connect with Professor Walton at Savannah State. And he became my mentor and friend. And I wouldn't be here talking to you if I had not been for. Dr. Walton and the other professors at Savannah State. So yeah.

Bruce Anthony: So it seems like what you're saying to me is one representation. You saw representation, you saw somebody that looked like you on the nightly news, and because you saw somebody that looked like you at the nightly news, you were paying attention to what he was saying and what he was saying and what he was talking about piqued your interest.

And then [00:08:00] when you get in college. You have a mentor that you revere and it skyrockets. Is

Dr. Marion Orr: Yep.

Bruce Anthony: the, the basic,

so.

Dr. Marion Orr: good. That's it in a nutshell.

Bruce Anthony: Right. So you said your parents, or at least your father could barely read, and you're the youngest of three siblings. How was education pushed in your household? Because I know my grandfather was only able to finish.

High school to 10th grade before he had to go out and start working to help support the family. And then he raised three children, two of which has their master's. All of 'em have their bachelor's degree because education was so very important and then the education trickled down. So I, I'm just wanna ask you, in your household, how important was it as a foundation that started from your parents and then your older siblings?

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah, well, it was, it was stress. Let me just say I'm the only one of the three to vote who have gone and finished college.

Yeah. In fact, my, my daddy [00:09:00] used to say. He had, one son who would not stop going to school. That's me

because I got my ba, my master's, and my PhD. And then he would tell his friends he had two who would not go to school at all. So, so I was, I was really just lucky to you hit it right when you said representation. When I walked on that campus at age 17 at Savannah

When Representation Changes Everything 👀📺⚡

Dr. Marion Orr: State. Bruce and, and met, and met those, met those professors, those black professors out there, man,

they blew me away.

They really did. They were leaders in the Savannah community.

Many of them were on the school board, city council, various commissions growing up in a working class. Almost poor community. I knew where they lived. They lived in some of the best [00:10:00] neighborhoods in Savannah for black people. I should act. So I knew where they lived and so they just so impressed me when I was, and, and it was, I'll tell you this, I was 18 years old when I went home and told mom and dad I wanted to be a political science professor.

Bruce Anthony: Mm.

Dr. Marion Orr: Those, those, those people out there on that campus just really blew me away. They were very impressive. They were very smart. They cared for their students. People like me who probably didn't have the strongest background, but they nurtured us. They cared for us. They wanted us to secede. And for me it was just a wonderful experience to be on that campus.

And I was out there five years because I had to work and pay my way through college. My

mom and dad couldn't, my mom and dad couldn't afford to to do that. And so I had to work at night to get through Savannah State. But the bottom line is. Those professors were so [00:11:00] impressive. They were very smart, and I was 17 years old and I was like, my goodness, these people are just really something else

and I wanna be just like them.

The Power of Being Called 'Doctor' at an HBCU 🎯🏛️💪

Dr. Marion Orr: And so that's really what happened. I

tell you, no lie. They were all, you know, at, at the Black colleges, Bruce, everybody is called Dr. So and so, you know, in the, in the big white schools, you know, people all their first names. But at Savannah State or Morehouse at Hampton, everybody who's a faculty member is referred to as Dr.

So and so, even your colleague call you Dr. So and so,

and as a young 17-year-old watching those black people out there being called doctor this and doctor that, I was like, my God, I could be doctor too, you know? That's how it happened, I tell you. No lie.

Bruce Anthony: And you did and you became a doctor at the greatest institution, the University of Maryland College

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes, yes, yes.

So I was, I was really blessed. Let me just say this. Is this a, a strong sort of, recognition of [00:12:00] the role that HBCUs have played and continue

Bruce Anthony: hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: in our, in our country?

Bruce Anthony: Hmm. Yes, absolutely. So. I love to tell the people how I'm a historian, how I have my history degree from the University of Maryland, and I love to tell the story that I didn't learn about the Tulsa massacre, and I had a really good, I went to three different high schools. One of 'em was a private school.

I had a really good high school education, but I did not learn about the Tulsa massacre until I took an African American history class at the University of Maryland.

I'm interviewing you because you wrote a book about a man that I actually had heard nothing about, but he is so vital and so important, and not just American history, but black history as well.

What first drew you to Charles c Diggs Jr. And was the moment that you discovered that, what was the moment that you discovered? This is a story that I want to tell.

Discovering Charles Diggs: The Forgotten Giant 🕵️📜🔍

Dr. Marion Orr: Well. [00:13:00] I discovered Diggs at Savannah State College

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: in Professor Walton's classes, and Walton taught many of the courses at Savannah State because there's no huge faculty, you know, so he's doing a lot of teaching, you

see, and a lot of research and publishing. There was a, he was a remarkable man.

He taught a lot, taught well, and he also got books published. Charles Diggs came up. Frequently in many of the courses that Professor Walton taught, if it was on Congress, he came up because Charles Diggs was the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus. If Professor Walton was teaching a course on city politics, Diggs would come up because Professor Walton would tell us about Washington DC and how unique. DC was compared to other cities because [00:14:00] Congress controls Washington DC and he would explain to us about home rule that Diggs helped, develop in, in Washington dc Professor Walton taught a course called African Politics.

It's the only course that I ever had on African politics, quite frankly, and in that course. Charles Diggs came up and not as some sort of fly by night person, but a serious leader, a substantial player in Professor Walton's courses. So I learned about digs as an undergrad at Savannah State College. I'll go on to graduate school to study political science. Bruce and I still learn more about Diggs and his contributions. And so after graduate school and going through the tenure process, I just realized that [00:15:00] no one, that no one had published or written a book on this person who I understood to be quite substantial. I discovered that he had left his papers at Howard University.

The archives there. And once I discovered that, I began to think, well, maybe I should write this book.

And, and about almost 10, 11 years ago, I set out to write the first biography of Charles c Digs Jr. And in this book, Bruce, I document that digs was the most consequential black person ever, ever, to serve in the United States Congress. So so that's the origin of the book. It, it started way back as an undergrad when I learned about his contributions at Savannah State College.

Bruce Anthony: And I am gonna cut the audience off. Before they even start to think it, because we're going to get into [00:16:00] the contributions of, of Mr. Digs, but everybody's gonna say, well, didn't Obama serve in Congress? Yes. And he did become president. However, when you understand everything that Charles digs did, you'll realize, yeah, no, this isn't hyperbolic Dr.

Or is absolutely right. Digs is the most important black. Person to ever serve in Congress. But you said something that I know my listeners here, 'cause I'm here in the DC area and I have a lot of listeners and watchers here in the DC area. You said something about house rule. This is the first time I'm actually hearing about that.

Can you describe what Mr. Diggs came up with with the house rule in Congress?

Home Rule: When Congress Controlled Black DC 🏛️⚖️😤

Dr. Marion Orr: No. A home room.

Bruce Anthony: Home rule. Excuse me. Home rule.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah. Home room. Yes. Home rule for Washington DC

Should I explain that to your listeners now? Oh, sure, sure. And [00:17:00] I learned this in Professor Walton's class when he talked about city politics. He would always make the point that DC is different. How is it different? Well, it's a city of 750,000 people.

Just about, but it's a city that is a seat of the national government.

It is the seed of our federal government. And if you read our constitution, the US Constitution, it makes very clear that the Congress has quote, exclusive unquote control over the federal district, which is Washington dc. And so Bruce, many people don't know this, but listen for about a hundred years. The president of the United States appointed the local officials in Washington DC.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: That's right. The president appointed the mayor, the [00:18:00] president appointed the city council members and other high ranking officials in the District of Columbia. That was not always the case. Here's the quick story. After the Civil War, I'm sorry.

Prior to the Civil War, you had what was called local democracy. There

that is the Congress and the president allowed local officials to be elected in the District of Columbia until the Civil War. When the Civil War came, more black people moved to the district. They became free

and became able to vote. And so during reconstruction, you began to see blacks gaining power and influence in the DC government. And it would be, this would be a problem for many whites. And so what would happen is they would take away [00:19:00] local democracy from, from DC falling reconstruction. And the bottom line is that Congress did not want black people, black Americans to run. Federal district.

And so for a hundred years, for a hundred years, they strip home rule away and allowed the president and other federal officials to appoint local officials for DC And it would not be until 1973 through the efforts of Charles Diggs Jr. That home rule would be restored. Restored in Washington, DC.

Bruce Anthony: Wow.

Dr. Marion Orr: And as you probably know, your listeners probably know that home rule currently is under attack

by the Republicans and Congress and John Donald J. Trump, the president of the United States.[00:20:00]

So home rule right now is really under serious attack. In fact, the Republican, platform. Party platform makes very clear that they would like to strip home rule away from the voters in the District of Columbia.

Bruce Anthony: Wow.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah, man.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, I knew something. I knew something like that was going on. I did not know this was part of the platform, but it actually makes sense.

Dr. Marion Orr: It's in there, it is in their platform. Your listeners and viewers can go read their two, their 2024 platform. They want to wrestle control away from local officials in the district.

Bruce Anthony: so that's one example of Charles Diggs. Importance in not only American politics, but also [00:21:00] black politics. But let's go all the way back to when he was elected to be a representative and there was a major event that happened in this country that kind woke people up in. Might have been the catalyst for white Americans to really see why the Civil rights movement was so important.

Emmett Till's Trial: The Congressman Who Showed Up 💔⚖️✊

Bruce Anthony: And that's the murder of Emmett Till. Now he pops up at the trial of the two people that murdered Emmett Till, and it was fascinating learning about this because once again. I knew nothing about this, but you go into detail about this in your book. Can you explain just how important it was for him to go there and really be the only, representative from Congress to be there?

Correct.

Dr. Marion Orr: This is, this

is true the only, per only member of the federal government to, to sit there in the trial [00:22:00] digs. As you said, Bruce was elected in 1954, November of 54. He goes to Congress, takes the O Office in January of 1955. In the summer of 1955, there's an important trial taking place in a small town called Sumner, Mississippi. And as you indicated, two white men were on trial down in Mississippi for the murder and the lynching of Emmett Till. Emmett Till was a 14-year-old black boy from Chicago. Who went to Mississippi in the summer of 55 to visit his relatives there, and he was murdered. Murdered for apparently whistling at a white woman or something to this, to this effect. Anyway, Congressman Diggs, who just arrived in office, he was 32 [00:23:00] years old, very young, relatively speaking. He decided that he would go. Down to Mississippi and sit in the courtroom and observe the trial of these two white men who allegedly murdered Emmett Till. Let me quickly add that after the trial they confessed to, to the killing of, of Emmett Till, Diggs presence at the trial had a number of important factors that make his presence so significant down there. Number one. The black witnesses who saw the murder take place were frightened to death because this is Mississippi in 1955, and any black person who accused a white man of murdering a black person their life was threatened.

Bruce Anthony: [00:24:00] Mm.

Dr. Marion Orr: So these witnesses were really frightened about what they had witnessed and the fact that they were being now asked to come forward and, and publicly testify at the trial and to, you know, accuse these two men of doing this.

So big's presence in the courtroom gave the black witnesses the courage, the stamina. The support they needed to go through with their testimony. And I know this because the witnesses are quoted as saying after the trial that seeing the black congressman in the courtroom gave them the courage. Seeing the black congressmen with power and influence gave them the courage to come forth so. He had an impact on the black witnesses [00:25:00] who were frightened to death. Let me just add that. Diggs working with another Congress member, William Dawson of Chicago, had to work and arrange for those witnesses to leave Mississippi. Okay? They had to leave because they knew that they would not be able to survive.

They would've been killed, and so Diggs help arrange. For the witnesses after their testimony to find a new life in Chicago.

Bruce Anthony: Mm.

Dr. Marion Orr: So a big impact on the witnesses. And here's the other factor that he impact, he had Bruce that your viewers should know about Digs presence. And you are right. He was the only federal official in the courtroom at the trial digs presence as a newly elected. Black member of Congress, I argue, elevated the media interest in the trial.

Bruce Anthony: [00:26:00] Hmm.

Courage Under Jim Crow: Five Days in Mississippi 😨🔥🎭

Dr. Marion Orr: His being down there, having the courage to go down there. Let me just say that this was, this was, he wrote, digs later, wrote about his experience. Down there during those five days, he wrote a series of essays for the Pittsburgh Courier describing the five days he was down there,

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: and he says very clearly that he was frightened.

Bruce Anthony: They didn't allow him to, they, they forced him to still, even though he's a elected official, a congressman, they still forced him to fall in line with the Jim Crow laws. And I think I read somewhere that he wasn't even allowed. He had to sit where black reporters were

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes, this is true. The courtroom was segregated and the sheriff made it very clear that he said to digs, I don't care if you a congressman or not, [00:27:00] you going to observe the segregation policies we have here in Sumner. Mississippi. And so he, like the others, had to sit in a segregated section of, of the court, of the courthouse.

In fact, they weren't gonna let him in the courthouse at all. At first. He

had to, he had to the sheriff blocked his initially blocked him from coming into into the courthouse.

It was only after digs got word to the judge that the judge allowed him to come in, and the judge and the sheriff would sit him, as you said. In the Jim Crow section of the of the courthouse. So digs presence there was very significant. And let me just say, this digs going down to Mississippi just a few months after taking the of office was also sending a signal to America about the role he planned to play as a [00:28:00] new member of Congress. Diggs was saying. Right out of the box that I plan to be a Congress member for all of black America

that I know Detroit sent me here. I know I represent the 13th Congressional District of Michigan, but I am going to be a leader, a spokesperson, a representative for all of Black America. And when you look at his record. After, you know, his moving forward, you can see that is simply what he set out to do. He became, you know, one of the strongest voices and civil rights in this country, and he would go on in congress to do a lot of amazing things.

Bruce Anthony: Well, let's talk about some of the stuff that he did in civil rights. And in Congress because he worked with Dr. Martin Luther, the King, that's what I call him, Dr. Martin Luther [00:29:00] the King. And he also was a founding member and chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. When you look at his political career, what do you think is the most defining moment for him when it states of, of him being a leader?

South Africa: The Fight That Defined His Legacy 🌍✊🔥

Dr. Marion Orr: Hmm. Well, if I, if, if, if someone would push me on this, on his, on his legacy. Such, it would have to be Africa, it would have to be Southern Africa.

Bruce Anthony: Okay.

Dr. Marion Orr: Let me say this.

Bruce Anthony: from South Africa,

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah. And here's why I say this. When Digs is elected in 1954, this is after the Brown V Board decision. He could elected in November. Brown was, I think in May. Okay. Harry Truman has already moved toward [00:30:00] desegregating the military and other efforts. You could see, Bruce, that our country was moving forever slowly toward incorporating blacks into the political system and to our system, generally speaking, with the civil rights laws being passed. So my point is. He was a digs, was a major civil rights leader, but I, I could suggest to you that some of the things he worked on was sort of moving in the right direction toward desegregation. For example, if you will. You understand what I'm saying?

Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

Dr. Marion Orr: Africa was different. Okay. Especially Southern Africa, when you look at the record. It's very clear that it, had it not been for Congressman Diggs using his position in Congress as chair of the [00:31:00] Africa subcommittee, that it was Diggs who was the one who pushed and push and push until this country recognized that it had to sever its ties from the racist apartheid regime in Southern Africa. And my point is this, unlike civil rights in America, where you can see maybe the nation moving in the right direction, from Brown, from Harry Truman to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, you don't see this in southern Africa.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: Democratic presidents, Republican presidents, all were aligned with the South African regime. And they all were trying to work with the South African regime, largely because of the Cold War imperative. South Africa was strongly anti-communist, you see,

so my point is this, I don't think our country [00:32:00] would have moved in the direction away from South Africa had it not been from the pressure that Charles Diggs helped. Bring about in this country in the seventies, eighties, and eventually in the 1990s. So, if I were pushed on this, I would say clearly his efforts in Africa and particularly South Africa were just monumental and it was clear that he had a role. Literally changing our policy. Listen, man,

I found letters in, in the Nixon papers where President Nixon was trying to pull us closer to South Africa, okay. Gerald Ford was trying to pull us closer to South Africa.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: Reagan was not someone who was, you know, trying to pull us away from South Africa. So my point is, Diggs work in this area was so critical because [00:33:00] it really reoriented our national policy towards Southern Africa.

Bruce Anthony: So with your, the, the research you did for the book, uncovering FBI files, conducting interviews with families and colleagues and digging to the archives, obviously going through the stuff at Howard, did you know about his. The, his importance of fighting apartheid beforehand or was this something that as you did the research for the book, you kind of honed in on and said, yes, he is very, very important in American history and black political history, extremely important,

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes, he is.

Bruce Anthony: this, this is what's the most important thing.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah.

Bruce Anthony: that discovered during the research?

Fighting Apartheid When Presidents Wouldn't 💥🌍⚔️

Dr. Marion Orr: It, it came upon reflection.

It came upon reflection, just as I just said. When you think about the arc of the movement in this country in terms of civil rights clearly Dr. King and, [00:34:00] and, and Congressman Diggs played a big role. But when you look at Africa and particular Southern Africa, bigs was trying to loosen the bonds between the two countries when Republicans in Congress, southern Democrats in Congress, and the White House was trying to strengthen the bond.

So for me, it sort of, upon reflection, I say, wow, when you look at this guy, he was really somewhat radical. On the issue of South Africa in terms of pushing our country away from the racist regime groups, very few people knew about apartheid,

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: and Diggs was talking about apartheid in the late fifties, early sixties, and the 1970s.

So he, he, he was the person who really galvanized this nation. Around an anti-apartheid movement. And I lay out in the book how he [00:35:00] facilitated that by helping create the organization that we now that became known as TransAfrica. So he

was phenomenal in this particular area, and that's why I think if I would push, I would say it's his work in South Africa that was so, so vital and so, so, so critical.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. 'cause what you're describing is a 25 to 30 year fight.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay. So you brought up Nixon and Nixon actually had a list. An enemy's list, not unlike our current president, but we're not gonna get into that. But Nixon had an enemy list and Mr. Digs was on this enemy list. Now, I'm not going to make the correlation that this is what led to the scandal and imprisonment, but I will say that it happened [00:36:00] not too long after.

put him on the list. So can we talk about a little bit, because I think this is the reason why he doesn't get talked about a lot in history is because of the scandal and going to prison. But he's maintained his innocence. He maintained his innocence until the end of his life, correct.

Nixon's Enemy List and the Birth of the CBC 📋👁️💣

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah, he did. Although if you read the trial transcripts, and I, I, I read every 1,200 page of it, it's pretty clear that he that he violated, that he violated congressional Payroll Rules at the time. Let me just say this, you mentioned Nixon and the enemies list. You see, Diggs was the founder. Of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Okay. And I wanna underscore this because a lot of folk talk about the 13 founding members. Okay. And there were [00:37:00] 13 founding members of which digs was one of them. But everybody can't be the founder. Okay. Let me make that very clear. Alright. Okay.

Alright. And so when you. My book, house of Diggs, I lay out very clearly how Charles Diggs became the individual to help create what became the who created what became the Congressional black Caucus. In the digs papers at Howard University, I discovered a letter, Bruce, a ated. It really took me away a letter. From John H. Johnson, Jr. Who was the founder of Jet Magazine and Ebony Magazine, Johnson Publishing Company.

Your listeners may have heard of these before and viewers. In 1957, John Johnson [00:38:00] writes to three Black Congress members, Adam Clayton Powell from New York.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: William Dawson from Chicago and Charles Diggs from Detroit. Johnson writes these three Congress members, and what he does is suggest that they shall form a quote Negro caucus unquote, that he was suggesting that the three of them should come together and form a caucus, a group among themselves so they can sort of coalesce in solidarity and work together.

Okay. Well, when you dig through the archives, here's what you find. Adam Clayton Powell wrote a dismissive note to Johnson's idea. Powell essentially was his own man. You know, he, he did, he didn't believe in working, working together, so he quickly dismissed Johnson's idea about a Negro caucus. Bill Dawson, the [00:39:00] black member from Chicago, was very conservative on race issue.

He was, he

stayed away from race issues.

Okay, so in the archives, there's no response from from Bill Dawson. I guess Bill Dawson probably simply ignored Dawson's, I mean, Johnson's idea. Okay? So Powell dismisses it. Dawson ignores it. But Congressman Diggs takes the time to respond, and he wrote a very thoughtful letter to Johnson on his idea of forming a Negro caucus, and essentially what the Young Congress member said was that great idea. However, there's only three of us perhaps once we. Grow the numbers, more blacks in the house, perhaps then we might consider [00:40:00] forming a caucus. Okay? And so a few years later, Diggs would take this up.

The Real Founder of the Congressional Black Caucus 🏛️👊🖤

Dr. Marion Orr: He would take Johnson's idea and implemented forming in 1969. A group that he called the Democratic Select Committee,

and what Diggs did was he began to have informal meetings with the now six people who were in the house because you had Adam Clayton Powell, Dawson Digs in 1958. Robin Nicks came in from Philadelphia in 1962. Augusta Hawkins came in from California, and in 1964, John Conyers joined digs as the second black member from Detroit. So now you have, you know, seven or eight members and digs were pulled those people together informally, and they would meet. And in 1969. In [00:41:00] 1969, he would solidify that group into an organization he called the Democratic Select Committee

because in 1969 you had three more members come in, Stokes from Ohio, Shirley Chisholm from Brooklyn, and Bill Clay from Missouri. And so digs formed the Democratics Elect Committee and then Bruce in 1971. The Democratic Select Committee became the

Congressional Black Caucus. This is why I say Diggs was the founder

of the caucus. Okay? He was one of 13 founding members,

but it was really Diggs who acted on John h Johnson's 1957 proposal, and it would be the. Congressional black [00:42:00] carcass push toward Nixon that would lead Diggs and other CBC members being on enemies list.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm. Which is funny 'cause I thought I read somewhere that, that at one point before the Nixon Kennedy election that Nixon and Martin Luther King were actually friends.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes. Yes, you, you're right. Nixon was the vice president in Eisenhower's administration,

and he was considered a moderate. On civil rights issues. He used to, he was the person in the administration that civil rights leaders could, could could talk to

on civil rights. It matters. And what would, what happened is that Nixon will run for, he lost race against John F.

Kennedy

Bruce Anthony: Well, he didn't, he didn't lose, they, that's the one election. [00:43:00] 2020 wasn't a stolen election, but that John Kennedy election, because you know, family is from Illinois, from Chicago. I can, I could say.

Dr. Marion Orr: okay. The, the Democratic machine gave the race to JFK.

That's what you're gonna tell me,

Bruce?

Bruce Anthony: that, that and some, some mafia folks, but they, they, that's the reason why Nixon was a little better because they, they stole that lecture

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so he, he ran in 1960. And he ran a somewhat moderate, race on on campaign on civil rights, but when he ran again in 1968. Nixon took a much more right-wing conservative position on civil rights,

on welfare and all these kind of issues, and, and he literally sort of flipped the stripper, if you will.

And, and, and, and, and instead of being a more moderate person on race, he became much more conservative [00:44:00] and, and would use use welfare reform and civil rights as a. Effort to, uh mm-hmm. To hurt the Democratic party.

Bruce Anthony: Now our art, the audience is gonna be upset. They're gonna be upset 'cause we touched on a nugget and we left a cliffhanger. And I thought that he was framed. But you're confirming Mr. Diggs did actually break the law and the, the prison sentence and conviction was legitimate.

The Scandal That Ended a Giant's Career 💸⚖️😔

Dr. Marion Orr: Let me, let me, let me lay this. Let me lay this out very clearly here. Diggs got involved in a payroll kickback scheme.

He increased his secretary salary and the increased salary came to Diggs, was given to Diggs to help [00:45:00] pay his bills.

The congressman, and this is not an excuse, I'm just explaining what happened to him. The congressman got into serious financial problems. And he decided the one way to get out of this financial problem is to be involved in this payroll kickback scheme.

Let me just add that other members of Congress had been involved in similar kinds of practices. It was, this is well known. I laid out in the

book that other members of Congress were doing this. Some got in trouble,

some got some liked digs, got convicted and, and sent to prison. So digs maintained his innocent. Yet, yet, when the, when he was on trial, the jury of 11 blacks and one white, most of the 11 blacks were women convicted digs. Of all 29 [00:46:00] of the charges that he that he was brought against him,

he had a very weak defense.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: He simply came to trial and said that the secretary voluntarily

allowed him to to take the salary. So it, it, so what, what, what, what, what, what Diggs would argue was that he was select selectively prosecuted,

That, that because he was an African American, a black man that the Justice Department decided to, you know, to take him throughout all the way to trial and convict and convict him. But if you read the book, I lay out what happened to Congressman Diggs and it's, it's, it's a sad story. But it happened and, but it doesn't diminished the impact Diggs had [00:47:00] on this country and in Africa. It impact him personally. It really did.

But in terms of his historical contributions, his his conviction of the payroll kickback scheme, I think is just evidence of his imperfectness, and the frailties and weaknesses that all of us have as complex human beings.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, it just sounds like he's just human, human.

Dr. Marion Orr: Well, he got, well, he, the deal was, this, again, it's not an excuse, just explaining it. in financial trouble and being, being a powerful Congress member, he was able, he had access, he saw opportunity to sort of get this money and, and, and he took it. And and, and he shouldn't have obviously.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. If you look at today's generation of black politicians from Congressional Black Congress to city mayors to grassroot leaders, [00:48:00] where do you still see digs as fingerprints? What parts of the political DDNA still live on in today's society?

His Fingerprints Are Everywhere You Look Today ✈️🏛️👀

Dr. Marion Orr: Well, when I, when I, when I, when I look at the current, almost 60. Over 60 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. I see, I see,

Digs legacy the group that at once was Guess 13 members, had now grown to 62 members. And the CBC, the Congressional Black Caucus is I think without question, one of the most powerful black political organizations in in the nation. When I look and see. Congressman Gary Gregory Meeks from New York is currently the ranking member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. If the Democrats become the majority, he would become chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Diggs [00:49:00] was, and he's a black man. Diggs was the first black person to ever serve on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

So when I see Gregory Meeks.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: And when the Democrats were in charge, he at one point was the the chair. I again. I see, I see, I see digs. His, his legacy is just so phenomenal. Listen, when I get on the airplane and fly. And I see black flight attendants and black pilots. I think about the efforts of Charlie Diggs in the 1950s and the 1960s to open up commercial air travel and employment. To black Americans.

Okay, I see digs. I, I I I don't fly anymore and, and not consider digs when I, when I get on the airplane. Now, you see because of, because of Charlie Digs. When I look out and I see Uri Bowser, the [00:50:00] mayor of Washington, DC in the Oval Office to Donald Trump, I see digs in his role as bringing home rule. Representation, democracy to Washington, DC Okay. So his, his legacy is just phenomenal.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. I gotta ask this 'cause you said Arian Bowser and, and you know, there's, you know, I live here, so she's made some decisions that, eh, you know, you know,

Dr. Marion Orr: Oh yeah. She, she's in a tough man. She's in a tough spot.

She's in a tough spot. Because I just told you and your, your viewers that Congress. has exclusive control over the District of Columbia.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah.

Dr. Marion Orr: She's in a tight spot, man. But go ahead,

Bruce Anthony: Con, it is called now the Congressional Black Caucus, but originally it was the you said it, it the, the name of the, the group [00:51:00] had Democratic in it.

Dr. Marion Orr: Democrat. Select committee. Yes.

Bruce Anthony: Democratic Select Committee throughout the history of the Congressional Black Caucus, have there been black Republicans? Because Byron Donalds isn't in the Congressional Black Caucus,

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah, historically the Republicans, black Republicans have not really been involved in the CBC.

Um, when the CBC was formed, Bruce, there was a black US congressman from Massachusetts, a

Republican. His name was Edward Brooks. Okay. He was a black man. He was in the US Senate.

Um, and Brooks, Senator Brooks was not a part of the Congressional Black Caucus. If he were, he would've been, it would've been one of 14 founding members.

Okay, so historically, historically, the Black Republicans [00:52:00] have have steered away from from the CBC because the CBC has historically been largely a democratic organization

Represented by, you know, democratic members. So no people like the guy from Florida you mentioned. Would not, would not be a part of the caucus in large part because they don't, you know, align with some of the policy issues that that the caucus stand for.

Bruce Anthony: Hmm. To kind of go away from the political of Mr. Diggs, was there something that you discovered about digs the man. Not the congressman, not the activist that help you understand his motivations, his flaws or his humanity in a deeper way.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah. Well, one of the things I would say is that, digs got along with almost everybody.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: It really is. I, I, [00:53:00] I talked to many of his colleagues who served with him and they liked him a lot. So he had the kind of demeanor and and whereby he was able to work with a broad range of people. He was by nature a coalition builder. That's the other thing that I sort of came away from sort of opening my eyes, that here's a guy who really had the capacity to build coalitions. Congressional Black Caucus in a way. It's a coalition

of black members of Congress. TransAfrica, which think played a big role in creating a coalition of activists, interested in bringing down the apartheid, apartheid regime, working with civil rights leaders outside of Congress.

He was very, very keen on linking up with entities and organizations. Outside of Congress so that those folk can put pressure on [00:54:00] Congress from the outside. So one of the things I guess taken away in learning about this man is just the extent to which his, demeanor and the way he carried himself attracted people to him.

People really liked working with him.

And you can't, can't say that about everybody who serves in, serves in Congress. Let me just add that a lot of people could not work with Adam Clayton Powell.

Many of the, many of the leaders of the black organizations talked about Powell as being unreliable, out for himself. So, so when, when it was time to get connect with a Congress member, they were more likely to call digs than than Adam Clayton Powell, because digs was a reliable serious policy oriented. Congress member,

Bruce Anthony: Hmm.

Dr. Marion Orr: question about that.

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, so [00:55:00] we've talked a lot about Mr. Diggs life. You have detailed so much about his life and career in your book, house of Diggs. What do you want not only the readers of your book, but the audience of the, to walk away with thinking, not just about. His work, but about the story of political struggle and the, and the progress in America.

Dr. Marion Orr: Yeah, I, the, the, the House of Diggs, this biography I've written on Congressman Diggs really gives the reader a closeup view of many of the important events. In our nation around civil rights from 1955 to 1980,

you're sitting there looking at what's happening with the Emmett Till situation. You are there working, he's there working with with, with [00:56:00] Dr.

King around passage of the 64 Civil Rights Act, passage of the 1965, voting Rights Act. Digs. We didn't mention this, but digs was a veteran of World War ii. So going through digs, you can see the challenges that that black military men discrimination they face during World War. And then of course you get to see the movement, the civil Rights Movement in this country spread not only here in this country, but to Southern

Africa, where, where blacks now in the eighties and nineties are mobilizing to help in Southern, Southern Africa.

So what you see through the life of digs is a gentleman who's. Key in many of these major, major, [00:57:00] historical periods in American, black American, black American life. So, so you, you get a close up look at, at American Political Life from the 1950s until his resignation with Congress in 19 19 80.

Bruce Anthony: Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Marian or author. The House of Diggs and once again, a graduate from the University of Maryland College Park. That's right. Dr. Or I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and giving us a lesson not only in American history, not only in black history, not only in American politics.

Also on black politics and African

Dr. Marion Orr: Yes. Yes.

Bruce Anthony: I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and enlightening us and, and engaging in this very conversation and [00:58:00] helping us grow knowledge about more of this country than we knew before.

Dr. Marion Orr: well, thank you, Bruce, for having me on. I really enjoyed it. You asked some really, really great questions. I appreciate it.

Bruce Anthony: Well, thank you. You know, I like to give myself a little pat on the back. That's that University of Maryland education.

Dr. Marion Orr: you did. Good. Thank you sir.

Bruce Anthony: Thank you.

Dr. Marion Orr: and your audience for for listening.

Bruce Anthony: It was my pleasure.

Why We Can't Afford to Forget Charles Diggs 📖💔🔥

Bruce Anthony: Man, that was a hell of a conversation, and like I said, I'm a historian. Man, I knew nothing about Charles digs. Nothing. I'm actually kind of embarrassed to, to, to interview Dr. Orr and to, and to do the research before the interview and to learn about Charles digs. To be a historian where my wheelhouse is literally World War II to the Clinton years, that's, that's my bag.

And to not know who Charles Diggs is, is an indictment not only [00:59:00] on me, right? As a historian, an indictment of our education system, not only middle school, high school, but also in college. It's an indictment of. Us as Americans to not know how consequential Mr. Diggs was in American history. Dr. O's work reminds us that history isn't just a set of names in a textbook.

It's a living map of how we got here. Charles Diggs wasn't perfect. None of our heroes are, but he was bold enough to challenge the system from the inside when the inside wasn't built for him. He stood at the crossroads of civil rights and political power, and his story forces us to ask, what do we owe to those who open the doors?

We now walk through, if you wanna dig deeper into that question, [01:00:00] and I really think you should go pick up Dr. Orr's new book, house of Digs, the rise and fall of America's Most consequential Black Congressman. It's not just about one man's journey. It's about the cost and courage of leadership in America.

The Cost and Courage of Black Leadership in America 🎯✊🌟

Bruce Anthony: I want to thank Dr, or for his time, for his scholarship, and for bringing Charles STIGs story back into the national conversation. And for everyone listening, I want you to stay curious. I want you to stay honest, and I want you to keep asking those questions that sometimes won't ever get asked, and search for the answers to the questions.

That don't get asked, but that need to be asked. Charles Digs is an important figure that should not be forgotten, and I feel it's the work of Dr. Or as well as Bruce Anthony, the host of Unsolicited Per Perspectives, [01:01:00] to make sure that he is remembered and celebrated for all the work that he's done. I want to thank you for listening.

I want to thank you for watching, and until next time, as always, I'll holler.

Keep the Conversation Going: Subscribe & Share 🔔💬🚀

Bruce Anthony: Woo. That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast. Wherever you're listening or watching it to it, pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock, we'll enjoy it also.

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Audi 5,000 Peace.