When Local News Dies, Government Secrecy Takes Over | Miranda Spivack

Synopsis: Who Watches Government When Local News Disappears? 👀📰🏛️

Bruce Anthony: What happens to a [00:00:01] community when the [00:00:02] people in power [00:00:03] [00:00:04] realizes nobody is [00:00:05] watching them? [00:00:06] We gonna get into [00:00:07] it. [00:00:08] Let's get it

[00:00:09] [00:00:10] [00:00:11] [00:00:12] [00:00:13] [00:00:14] [00:00:15] [00:00:16] [00:00:17] [00:00:18]

Bruce Anthony: [00:00:19] Welcome. [00:00:20] First of all, [00:00:21] welcome. This is [00:00:22] Unsolicited Perspectives. [00:00:23] I am your host, Bruce [00:00:24] Anthony, here to lead the [00:00:25] conversation in [00:00:26] important events and [00:00:27] topics that are [00:00:28] shaping today's society. [00:00:29] Join the [00:00:30] conversation and follow us [00:00:31] wherever you get your audio [00:00:32] podcasts. Subscribe [00:00:33] to our YouTube channel for our [00:00:34] video podcasts, [00:00:35] YouTube exclusive [00:00:36] content, and our [00:00:37] YouTube membership. [00:00:38] Rate, review, [00:00:39] like, [00:00:40] comment, share. [00:00:41] Share with your [00:00:42] friends, share with [00:00:43] your family, [00:00:44] hell, even share with [00:00:45] your enemies. On [00:00:46] today's [00:00:47] episode, local [00:00:48] newspapers are [00:00:49] disappearing, government [00:00:50] secrecy is [00:00:51] expanding, and [00:00:52] ordinary citizens are being [00:00:53] forced to uncover the [00:00:54] truth on their [00:00:55] own. [00:00:56] But that's enough of the [00:00:57] intro. [00:00:58] Let's get to the [00:00:59] show

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Bruce Anthony: [00:01:00] [00:01:01] [00:01:02] [00:01:03] [00:01:04] [00:01:05] [00:01:06] [00:01:07] I've always [00:01:08] had a deep respect [00:01:09] for journalism [00:01:10] because at its [00:01:11] best, journalism is [00:01:12] about searching for truth, [00:01:13] revealing [00:01:14] the truth, [00:01:15] pointing out [00:01:16] hypocrisy, and [00:01:17] standing up for the people who [00:01:18] don't always have the [00:01:19] power or the [00:01:20] platform to [00:01:21] stand up for themselves. [00:01:22] And I [00:01:23] think somewhere along the [00:01:24] way, we've started [00:01:25] confusing [00:01:26] commentary with [00:01:27] journalism.[00:01:28]

Opinion [00:01:29] segments, debates, [00:01:30] and people [00:01:31] arguing their personal [00:01:32] point of view can [00:01:33] be informative [00:01:34] and entertaining, [00:01:35] but that's not [00:01:36] the same thing as [00:01:37] doing the work to uncover [00:01:38] the [00:01:39] facts. True [00:01:40] journalism is not about [00:01:41] finding facts that support your [00:01:42] argument that you [00:01:43] already wanted to [00:01:44] make. It's about [00:01:45] finding the evidence [00:01:46] wherever it leads, and [00:01:47] even when the truth is [00:01:48] uncomfortable, [00:01:49] [00:01:50] inconvenient, or [00:01:51] challenges what you [00:01:52] already believe. [00:01:53] That work [00:01:54] becomes even [00:01:55] more important at the [00:01:56] local level.[00:01:57]

When local [00:01:58] newspapers [00:01:59] disappear, we don't just [00:02:00] lose sports [00:02:01] scores, community [00:02:02] announcements, or coverage of [00:02:03] city council [00:02:04] meetings. We [00:02:05] lose people whose [00:02:06] job it is to pay [00:02:07] attention. [00:02:08] We lose

What Communities Lose When Their Local Newspapers Disappear 🏘️📰💔

Bruce Anthony: reporters [00:02:09] who know the [00:02:10] neighborhoods, understand the [00:02:11] history, recognize [00:02:12] the people in power, [00:02:13] and notice when [00:02:14] something doesn't [00:02:15] add up.

[00:02:16] And when nobody is [00:02:17] paying attention, [00:02:18] entire [00:02:19] communities can be [00:02:20] ignored, overlooked, [00:02:21] or left to [00:02:22] fall through the [00:02:23] cracks. How are [00:02:24] we supposed to [00:02:25] understand people, let [00:02:26] alone empathize with [00:02:27] them, when we [00:02:28] do not truly [00:02:29] know what is happening [00:02:30] in their communities? [00:02:31] How can we [00:02:32] recognize [00:02:33] injustice, corruption, [00:02:34] or [00:02:35] neglect when there is [00:02:36] nobody there to [00:02:37] document it? [00:02:38] For twenty years, [00:02:39] Miranda Speevak [00:02:40] covered government [00:02:41] and corporate [00:02:42] accountability at The [00:02:43] Washington Post.

[00:02:44] During that time, she [00:02:45] watched local [00:02:46] newspapers disappear [00:02:47] one by one [00:02:48] and began asking [00:02:49] a simple [00:02:50] but unsettling [00:02:51] question: [00:02:52] What happens to a [00:02:53] community when nobody is [00:02:54] left to cover city [00:02:55] hall? [00:02:56] What she discovered [00:02:57] led her to ordinary [00:02:58] people who decided [00:02:59] to start asking [00:03:00] questions themselves. [00:03:01] Her book, [00:03:02] Backroom [00:03:03] Deals in Our [00:03:04] Backyards, follows five [00:03:05] people who had no [00:03:06] press credentials, [00:03:07] no legal [00:03:08] teams, no [00:03:09] special access.[00:03:10]

They simply [00:03:11] believed something was [00:03:12] wrong, began [00:03:13] searching for the [00:03:14] answers, and [00:03:15] refused to stop digging. [00:03:16] In this [00:03:17] conversation, [00:03:18] Miranda and I are going to [00:03:19] explore what [00:03:20] journalism is supposed to do, [00:03:21] what happens [00:03:22] when local [00:03:23] institutions are allowed to [00:03:24] operate without meaningful [00:03:25] scrutiny, [00:03:26] and why [00:03:27] ordinary citizens are [00:03:28] increasingly being [00:03:29] forced to [00:03:30] fill the gap [00:03:31] left behind when [00:03:32] reporters [00:03:33] disappear.

[00:03:34] Without further [00:03:35] ado, [00:03:36] journalist, [00:03:37] former Fulbright [00:03:38] Scholar, and [00:03:39] author [00:03:40] [00:03:41] Miranda Speevak [00:03:42] As I said at the [00:03:43] top, I'm here with [00:03:44] Miranda Spivak, [00:03:45] author of [00:03:46] Backroom Deals [00:03:47] in Our [00:03:48] Backyards: How [00:03:49] Government Secrecy [00:03:50] Harms Our Community and [00:03:51] Local Heroes [00:03:52] Fight Back. [00:03:53] Miranda, thank [00:03:54] you so much for [00:03:55] joining the show. We are [00:03:56] gonna be talking about something [00:03:57] that's near and dear to [00:03:58] my heart, and that [00:03:59] is [00:04:00] journalism, and that is [00:04:01] also fighting [00:04:02] for the little [00:04:03] person.

And you [00:04:04] have this book [00:04:05] where you [00:04:06] have five [00:04:07] people [00:04:08] who fought for [00:04:09] themselves, so I'm [00:04:10] really interested to [00:04:11] hear [00:04:12] about that [00:04:13] and just about [00:04:14] [00:04:15] your take on [00:04:16] journalism in [00:04:17] whole. So thank you so much for [00:04:18] coming on the show

Miranda Spivack: [00:04:19] No, well, thanks, [00:04:20] Bruce. It's great to be [00:04:21] here[00:04:22]

Bruce Anthony: I, normally [00:04:23] I start the [00:04:24] show with [00:04:25] saying, "Let's go [00:04:26] back and tell me [00:04:27] about your background and [00:04:28] your childhood and [00:04:29] stuff like that." But [00:04:30] I am going to [00:04:31] steal a line from [00:04:32] one of my favorite [00:04:33] movies called Brown Sugar, [00:04:34] and [00:04:35] in that line, [00:04:36] the, the [00:04:37] journalist would ask [00:04:38] anybody in the music [00:04:39] industry when they fell [00:04:40] in love with music.

[00:04:41] So I'm going to [00:04:42] ask you, Miranda, [00:04:43] when was it that you [00:04:44] fell in love with [00:04:45] journalism?[00:04:46]

Miranda Spivack: Well, that's a great [00:04:47] question, actually. [00:04:48] [00:04:49] So, [00:04:50] I would [00:04:51] have to say [00:04:52] that it was [00:04:53] probably in high [00:04:54] school in [00:04:55] Fairfax County, [00:04:56] Virginia. [00:04:57] And [00:04:58] then not [00:04:59] in college [00:05:00] because I [00:05:01] was like [00:05:02] watching this [00:05:03] profession even then, and [00:05:04] this is [00:05:05] e- eons [00:05:06] ago, [00:05:07] uh, start to [00:05:08] really [00:05:09] decline. And also [00:05:10] my father [00:05:11] was a journalist in [00:05:12] Washington, D.C.,

and [00:05:13] he died when I was a [00:05:14] freshman in college [00:05:15] of a heart attack. [00:05:16] And I just [00:05:17] understood, I think, [00:05:18] just what a [00:05:19] stressful [00:05:20] occupation this could be. So [00:05:21] of course, I thought I [00:05:22] was gonna be a lawyer. [00:05:23] [00:05:24] However,[00:05:25]

Bruce Anthony: So [00:05:26] hold on.

Miranda Spivack: [00:05:27] however. [00:05:28] Okay.

Bruce Anthony: You thought [00:05:29] [00:05:30] journalism was too [00:05:31] stressful, so you [00:05:32] decided, "I'm gonna be a [00:05:33] lawyer." Okay. In [00:05:34] Washington,

Miranda Spivack: Yeah, [00:05:35] well, forget [00:05:36] that too. So what [00:05:37] happened actually was [00:05:38] that I was [00:05:39] between my junior and [00:05:40] senior years of [00:05:41] college, I got a [00:05:42] job on a small [00:05:43] newspaper.[00:05:44]

Had a [00:05:45] great editor. I [00:05:46] probably-- one of the best [00:05:47] editors I've ever [00:05:48] had. [00:05:49] And then I [00:05:50] was like: "Oh man, [00:05:51] this is too much [00:05:52] fun. You know, this is [00:05:53] what I'm gonna do." I, [00:05:54] I was [00:05:55] resisting it, but I'm gonna do [00:05:56] it. So that, you [00:05:57] know, it goes way back. [00:05:58] And I've been a [00:05:59] journalist for [00:06:00] 40-plus [00:06:01] years. Uh, [00:06:02] really never strayed [00:06:03] from the [00:06:04] profession[00:06:05]

Bruce Anthony: Well, w- [00:06:06] you worked for The [00:06:07] Washington Post for [00:06:08] over 20[00:06:09]

Miranda Spivack: Yeah, about [00:06:10] 20.

Bruce Anthony: About 20 [00:06:11] years. And while you were [00:06:12] at The Washington Post, [00:06:13] you saw [00:06:14] local [00:06:15] newspapers start to [00:06:16] disappear.

Miranda Spivack: [00:06:17] Right

Bruce Anthony: [00:06:18] This probably [00:06:19] happened in the late [00:06:20] '90s going into [00:06:21] 2000s when [00:06:22] the internet is, [00:06:23] is, is really [00:06:24] taking shape. I [00:06:25] know living in [00:06:26] the Washington, D.C.

[00:06:27] area, going to the University of [00:06:28] Maryland, [00:06:29] riding the Metro [00:06:30] back and forth, it [00:06:31] was very [00:06:32] easy for me to [00:06:33] get that [00:06:34] Washington Post [00:06:35] before I hop on the Metro [00:06:36] and, and read [00:06:37] it.

How Craigslist and Amazon Helped Destroy Local Newspapers Online 📉📰💻

Bruce Anthony: [00:06:38] When did this [00:06:39] disappearing of [00:06:40] local [00:06:41] newspapers, though, [00:06:42] when did that start to cause [00:06:43] alarm for you?

Miranda Spivack: [00:06:44] Yeah, I think, [00:06:45] I think you're right. I think [00:06:46] it does [00:06:47] coincide a lot [00:06:48] with the growth of the [00:06:49] internet, uh, [00:06:50] the failure, I think, [00:06:51] of news [00:06:52] organizations, including the [00:06:53] Post, to really [00:06:54] understand [00:06:55] what th-this [00:06:56] was gonna mean. [00:06:57] And [00:06:58] then actually [00:06:59] it was [00:07:00] Craigslist that [00:07:01] really killed off [00:07:02] local news because [00:07:03] it sucked up [00:07:04] all the local [00:07:05] ads.[00:07:06]

Uh, [00:07:07] and, and you know those [00:07:08] little classified [00:07:09] ads that you used to see in [00:07:10] newspapers, those were [00:07:11] worth about [00:07:12] $100 a box. I

Bruce Anthony: Oh, [00:07:13] wow

Miranda Spivack: very... [00:07:14] Especially, well, at the [00:07:15] Post, but, you know, [00:07:16] smaller newspapers, but they [00:07:17] were very valuable. [00:07:18] And they were also [00:07:19] a way that [00:07:20] communities communicated, [00:07:21] frankly, with each other.

I [00:07:22] mean, journalists are always [00:07:23] like, "Oh, [00:07:24] advertising," blah, blah, blah. But [00:07:25] actually it's [00:07:26] another... I wouldn't [00:07:27] call it local news, but [00:07:28] it's another form of [00:07:29] local [00:07:30] communication, so you know what [00:07:31] the local [00:07:32] bookstore is doing. They [00:07:33] don't exist [00:07:34] anymore , you know. [00:07:35] Uh, you know [00:07:36] where you could buy [00:07:37] clothes, where you could buy [00:07:38] groceries, [00:07:39] whatever.

And [00:07:40] so [00:07:41] when [00:07:42] Craigslist-- And, you know, the [00:07:43] guy who started that [00:07:44] actually has done a [00:07:45] lot of [00:07:46] philanthropy subsequently for [00:07:47] local news, 'cause I think [00:07:48] he feel, Craig [00:07:49] Newmark feels guilty [00:07:50] about it, but [00:07:51] as opposed [00:07:52] to Jeff Bezos, who [00:07:53] doesn't care. But, [00:07:54] [00:07:55] the, you know, it, I [00:07:56] think it goes back [00:07:57] to the early [00:07:58] 2000s.

The internet [00:07:59] was really starting to [00:08:00] come on and, and you know, I [00:08:01] remember this debate. I was at [00:08:02] the Post starting in [00:08:03] 1998, and there [00:08:04] was a whole [00:08:05] internal debate about [00:08:06] sort of what to do, [00:08:07] and Steve [00:08:08] Call, who was then the [00:08:09] managing editor [00:08:10] and left [00:08:11] kind of, I [00:08:12] think, in frustration, [00:08:13] but he saw it [00:08:14] coming. [00:08:15] And, you know, much as [00:08:16] I love the Graham [00:08:17] family, and I do [00:08:18] respect and admire [00:08:19] them a lot, then I [00:08:20] think that [00:08:21] everybody was a little [00:08:22] behind on this.

And [00:08:23] then, and then when [00:08:24] Bezos bought the [00:08:25] paper [00:08:26] he really started to [00:08:27] diminish the [00:08:28] local coverage, [00:08:29] which [00:08:30] continues now. It's [00:08:31] been eviscerated. [00:08:32] But this is [00:08:33] also playing out [00:08:34] in communities all [00:08:35] around the country. It's [00:08:36] not just the [00:08:37] DC, the DMV, as we [00:08:38] call it. It's not [00:08:39] that. It's really [00:08:40] going on everywhere, and [00:08:41] it's really the loss of [00:08:42] local [00:08:43] advertising and local [00:08:44] businesses.

So [00:08:45] Amazon hits you in two [00:08:46] ways. You know, they [00:08:47] suck up all your [00:08:48] local business. They [00:08:49] took the book [00:08:50] industry. [00:08:51] You can get [00:08:52] anything you want from [00:08:53] Amazon, including [00:08:54] groceries, so why [00:08:55] should I have to go to the grocery [00:08:56] store? [00:08:57] DoorDash, I mean, all [00:08:58] this stuff is, you know, [00:08:59] people are living [00:09:00] on the internet now.[00:09:01]

Bruce Anthony: Yeah, [00:09:02] that's interesting [00:09:03] because I think a lot of [00:09:04] people look at [00:09:05] newspapers [00:09:06] as, uh, [00:09:07] and their source of [00:09:08] revenue as [00:09:09] subscriptions, but [00:09:10] no, it [00:09:11] was ads [00:09:12] and those comm- I [00:09:13] didn't even [00:09:14] think about the [00:09:15] community [00:09:16] advertisements that would [00:09:17] be in the [00:09:18] newspaper for [00:09:19] jobs [00:09:20] or people [00:09:21] selling [00:09:22] stuff. It's [00:09:23] almost as if [00:09:24] [00:09:25] Craigslist, [00:09:26] as you say, [00:09:27] [00:09:28] started [00:09:29] it, but then like the [00:09:30] Nextdoor app, [00:09:31] [00:09:32] where [00:09:33] communities are [00:09:34] literally [00:09:35] speaking to one [00:09:36] another and they're [00:09:37] advertising [00:09:38] what they-- Has gotten rid of [00:09:39] Craigslist.

So [00:09:40] that's another [00:09:41] aspect of that [00:09:42] extension. [00:09:43] H- But [00:09:44] so [00:09:45] when this [00:09:46] is happening to The [00:09:47] Washington Post, [00:09:48] these [00:09:49] local newspapers are [00:09:50] disappearing because [00:09:51] that ad [00:09:52] revenue is [00:09:53] disappearing. What is [00:09:54] happening [00:09:55] [00:09:56] to the local [00:09:57] news [00:09:58] [00:09:59] and the [00:10:00] community at [00:10:01] large when these [00:10:02] newspapers are [00:10:03] disappearing? [00:10:04]

How Ordinary Citizens Are Filling the Local Journalism Vacuum 🔍👥📰

Miranda Spivack: Well, I [00:10:05] mean, and that's sort of what my [00:10:06] book is about too, [00:10:07] because what [00:10:08] happens, [00:10:09] local news, [00:10:10] people see [00:10:11] themselves in the [00:10:12] newspaper, or they see their [00:10:13] neighbors in the newspaper, or they [00:10:14] see high school sports [00:10:15] in the newspaper. [00:10:16] These are all [00:10:17] community unifiers. [00:10:18] You know, [00:10:19] public issues [00:10:20] that are discussed [00:10:21] in the newspaper, [00:10:22] you know, covering the [00:10:23] city council, [00:10:24] uh, the school [00:10:25] board, you know, [00:10:26] public school [00:10:27] issues, whatever.[00:10:28]

So when [00:10:29] they're not being [00:10:30] reported on, I [00:10:31] think it, it, [00:10:32] it fr- it's sort [00:10:33] of a chicken and egg, but [00:10:34] I think it [00:10:35] fractures the [00:10:36] community. The community [00:10:37] looks for other ways [00:10:38] to communicate that [00:10:39] aren't as [00:10:40] verifiable. I mean, [00:10:41] I'm sorry, [00:10:42] but, you know, [00:10:43] all this stuff [00:10:44] on [00:10:45] Facebook and elsewhere [00:10:46] that people post [00:10:47] without even [00:10:48] checking it, [00:10:49] it's-- who [00:10:50] knows, you know, what [00:10:51] is really [00:10:52] true [00:10:53] anymore?

So, which of course [00:10:54] Trump has played [00:10:55] on tremendously. [00:10:56] But, [00:10:57] it, [00:10:58] it just, [00:10:59] it, you know, [00:11:00] community listservs. I [00:11:01] mean, when I went to [00:11:02] research my book, which was [00:11:03] about five local [00:11:04] communities [00:11:05] where the news [00:11:06] organizations are [00:11:07] basically gone [00:11:08] except in one [00:11:09] case, and it's [00:11:10] local people who [00:11:11] step in and [00:11:12] step up and, [00:11:13] and discover a [00:11:14] problem in their [00:11:15] community and go about trying [00:11:16] to solve it, [00:11:17] frankly, without [00:11:18] much media [00:11:19] coverage.

[00:11:20] And, [00:11:21] you know, this [00:11:22] is what's happened, is I [00:11:23] think that [00:11:24] civilians, as [00:11:25] I call them, they're not [00:11:26] lawyers, they're not [00:11:27] journalists, they [00:11:28] they are, [00:11:29] to the extent that they [00:11:30] are able and [00:11:31] have time, they are [00:11:32] stepping in and filling [00:11:33] the void. [00:11:34] But, [00:11:35] you know, they're not [00:11:36] all-- I'm, [00:11:37] I'm not saying that they're [00:11:38] dishonest, but they're [00:11:39] not [00:11:40] verifiable [00:11:41] communicators.

And, [00:11:42] you know, [00:11:43] journalism is a profession [00:11:44] despite what [00:11:45] people think. [00:11:46] And [00:11:47] certainly, you know, [00:11:48] every news organization [00:11:49] I've worked at, which [00:11:50] was local all the [00:11:51] way to national, [00:11:52] we worked [00:11:53] very hard [00:11:54] to be [00:11:55] accurate, and when we made a [00:11:56] mistake, we owned up [00:11:57] to it. And I [00:11:58] think that [00:11:59] doesn't happen now with [00:12:00] all this stuff on the [00:12:01] internet.

So if [00:12:02] you're [00:12:03] somebody [00:12:04] interested in an issue, [00:12:05] you really have to look [00:12:06] long and [00:12:07] hard to find the [00:12:08] truth.

Bruce Anthony: [00:12:09] So,

Researcher vs Journalist: Chasing Truth, Not Your Own Thesis 🔍📝⚖️

Bruce Anthony: uh, [00:12:10] Miranda, [00:12:11] the audience knows [00:12:12] this, but you [00:12:13] don't know this. My first [00:12:14] major at the [00:12:15] University of Maryland [00:12:16] was journalism. [00:12:17]

Miranda Spivack: Oh, well, we won't [00:12:18] hold it against you.[00:12:19] [00:12:20]

Bruce Anthony: I, I, [00:12:21] I loved and [00:12:22] wrote for this [00:12:23] a little while for the [00:12:24] school newspaper at [00:12:25] both in high school and [00:12:26] college. I, [00:12:27] uh, [00:12:28] ended up [00:12:29] being secondary [00:12:30] education and history, but [00:12:31] more importantly, was [00:12:32] a, as a [00:12:33] researcher, those jobs [00:12:34] are researchers, [00:12:35] and it's not [00:12:36] about [00:12:37] [00:12:38] proving your [00:12:39] thesis.

It's about [00:12:40] finding [00:12:41] the truth, [00:12:42] whether the truth [00:12:43] leads you [00:12:44] to back up [00:12:45] what you believed [00:12:46] or sends you down a [00:12:47] path where you're like, [00:12:48] "I was [00:12:49] wrong." And a lot of [00:12:50] people, though [00:12:51] well-intentioned, as you [00:12:52] say, don't [00:12:53] have that [00:12:54] training because it is [00:12:55] absolutely [00:12:56] a profession. [00:12:57] Me as a [00:12:58] researcher [00:12:59] still can't be a [00:13:00] journalist [00:13:01] because there are other [00:13:02] aspects of [00:13:03] journalism that I [00:13:04] did not [00:13:05] learn.

Uh, I [00:13:06] had a problem [00:13:07] when writing of [00:13:08] not having [00:13:09] my [00:13:10] personality come out,[00:13:11]

Miranda Spivack: Mm.

Bruce Anthony: [00:13:12] and they're like, [00:13:13] "You're, you're a [00:13:14] columnist. You're, you're an opinion person. You're-- Yeah,

Miranda Spivack: Yeah, [00:13:15] right. This is a [00:13:16] opinion that's not bad

Bruce Anthony: [00:13:17] you can't, you can't [00:13:18] write just [00:13:19] facts because your [00:13:20] voice always comes [00:13:21] out." [00:13:22] How [00:13:23] can people [00:13:24] that are getting [00:13:25] information from [00:13:26] Facebook, [00:13:27] that are [00:13:28] getting information from [00:13:29] people who aren't journalists, [00:13:30] even the ones that are [00:13:31] on TV that [00:13:32] speak for a living, [00:13:33] how can they [00:13:34] decipher [00:13:35] or research on their [00:13:36] own and find out [00:13:37] what is [00:13:38] truth and what is [00:13:39] opinion?[00:13:40] [00:13:41]

Miranda Spivack: You

How to Separate Real Journalism From Opinion and Online Noise ✅📰🤔

Miranda Spivack: know, [00:13:42] that is a hard [00:13:43] question to [00:13:44] answer, and [00:13:45] the reason [00:13:46] is [00:13:47] that [00:13:48] AI [00:13:49] is taking [00:13:50] over the internet [00:13:51] now. [00:13:52] And [00:13:53] I mean, I've looked [00:13:54] at stuff that I [00:13:55] know [00:13:56] from [00:13:57] either my own work [00:13:58] or experience [00:13:59] or whatever, and [00:14:00] you put it into [00:14:01] AI and it [00:14:02] spits out [00:14:03] gibberish and, [00:14:04] you know, bad [00:14:05] information in, [00:14:06] bad information [00:14:07] out.

It's not [00:14:08] a big mystery why [00:14:09] this isn't working. [00:14:10] [00:14:11] So, you know, [00:14:12] I think [00:14:13] the public [00:14:14] library and the [00:14:15] librarians, frankly, [00:14:16] are great [00:14:17] sources of [00:14:18] how to verify [00:14:19] information and how [00:14:20] to get [00:14:21] information. They also [00:14:22] have access [00:14:23] to [00:14:24] online [00:14:25] databases that [00:14:26] are [00:14:27] fact-based. [00:14:28] And that, you know, [00:14:29] frankly, I would, [00:14:30] you know, [00:14:31] hooray for [00:14:32] librarians.

I mean, I would [00:14:33] go to the public [00:14:34] library, which you can [00:14:35] also reach online [00:14:36] through your [00:14:37] library [00:14:38] card. But, [00:14:39] you know, that's [00:14:40] certainly one way. I [00:14:41] think there are [00:14:42] news [00:14:43] organizations, I would [00:14:44] in particular [00:14:45] point to The New York [00:14:46] Times, that I think [00:14:47] still do [00:14:48] very good [00:14:49] work. I, [00:14:50] you know, full [00:14:51] disclosure, I have [00:14:52] freelanced for them, [00:14:53] but I, I [00:14:54] do think they're a step [00:14:55] above pretty [00:14:56] much everybody else in [00:14:57] this country.

So [00:14:58] yeah, I mean, they are not [00:14:59] perfect, but [00:15:00] they really do... [00:15:01] For example, this [00:15:02] whole story about [00:15:03] Trump's [00:15:04] airplane that [00:15:05] needed to be [00:15:06] retrofitted, which [00:15:07] nobody wanted to [00:15:08] admit why [00:15:09] he wasn't flying [00:15:10] back from the [00:15:11] fancy Qatar [00:15:12] gift plane [00:15:13] from Turkey [00:15:14] and from NATO. Well, [00:15:15] The Times got that [00:15:16] story [00:15:17] and, and [00:15:18] now they're [00:15:19] being sued [00:15:20] basically, or [00:15:21] pur-pursued [00:15:22] by the [00:15:23] administration [00:15:24] because, you [00:15:25] know, obviously it was [00:15:26] based on some kind of [00:15:27] classified information, [00:15:28] or at least secret [00:15:29] information if it [00:15:30] wasn't classified.[00:15:31] [00:15:32]

You know, [00:15:33] that's the reaction of [00:15:34] the government to [00:15:35] truth when [00:15:36] actually The Times [00:15:37] performed a public [00:15:38] service by [00:15:39] alerting everybody to the [00:15:40] fact that this plane [00:15:41] wasn't safe for the [00:15:42] President of the United [00:15:43] States. [00:15:44] Why would you argue [00:15:45] against that? And it [00:15:46] turns out to be true [00:15:47] because, of course, [00:15:48] they're now taking [00:15:49] the plane out of service [00:15:50] and retrofitting [00:15:51] it.

So I [00:15:52] will say, you know, you [00:15:53] have to really [00:15:54] know your [00:15:55] sources. [00:15:56] So I, [00:15:57] you know, I would say The New [00:15:58] York Times is a good [00:15:59] source. I think there are [00:16:00] other good [00:16:01] sources. But also, [00:16:02] you know, trust but [00:16:03] verify. [00:16:04] Go to the [00:16:05] library, talk to-- [00:16:06] get access to [00:16:07] their stuff [00:16:08] and, [00:16:09] and try your [00:16:10] hardest and, you [00:16:11] know, you talk to [00:16:12] people.

I mean, when I-- [00:16:13] I'm a journalist, [00:16:14] I interview people, [00:16:15] but you know what? I [00:16:16] don't take [00:16:17] everything they say at face [00:16:18] value. I [00:16:19] use that as a [00:16:20] opportunity [00:16:21] to look elsewhere [00:16:22] for information. [00:16:23] But it's a, it's a [00:16:24] process, [00:16:25] and certainly sharing [00:16:26] stuff on Facebook [00:16:27] without [00:16:28] verifying it is [00:16:29] just [00:16:30] irresponsible

Bruce Anthony: [00:16:31] Yeah. [00:16:32] Going back to [00:16:33] the loss [00:16:34] of local [00:16:35] news and local [00:16:36] newspapers, [00:16:37] [00:16:38] what, [00:16:39] what happens [00:16:40] in city [00:16:41] government or what does [00:16:42] city government do [00:16:43] differently the [00:16:44] moment they [00:16:45] realize nobody's

[00:16:46] watching, them? [00:16:47] Yeah

What Government Does When Nobody Is Watching Local Officials 👀🏛️🚪

Miranda Spivack: right? [00:16:48] Well, [00:16:49] I mean, [00:16:50] that is a [00:16:51] huge issue [00:16:52] around the country, and [00:16:53] that's why these [00:16:54] accidental activists, [00:16:55] as I call them in my [00:16:56] book, [00:16:57] who become the community [00:16:58] watchdogs, I [00:16:59] mean, they show [00:17:00] up. You know, they [00:17:01] are at the [00:17:02] city council [00:17:03] meetings. And, [00:17:04] and when-- [00:17:05] or they are [00:17:06] asking for [00:17:07] documents and data from the [00:17:08] government, which you're [00:17:09] entitled to get under [00:17:10] most state public [00:17:11] records laws.[00:17:12]

But [00:17:13] when they're [00:17:14] not there, [00:17:15] nobody in the community [00:17:16] knows what's going [00:17:17] on. And when the [00:17:18] local [00:17:19] reporter goes [00:17:20] away or is too [00:17:21] overworked [00:17:22] or is [00:17:23] discouraged from attending [00:17:24] meetings, which [00:17:25] frankly was happening [00:17:26] at the Washington [00:17:27] Post, where I would [00:17:28] just say, [00:17:29] "Oh, come on." You [00:17:30] know, when I go to a [00:17:31] meeting, yes, [00:17:32] 90% of it I'm not [00:17:33] gonna write about.

It's [00:17:34] not interesting to [00:17:35] our readers. But there's [00:17:36] that 10% [00:17:37] that if I weren't [00:17:38] there, I wouldn't [00:17:39] hear. [00:17:40] So, you know, it, [00:17:41] it takes a lot of [00:17:42] legwork to do [00:17:43] this, but this is-- You [00:17:44] know, what's happening is [00:17:45] that [00:17:46] governments know [00:17:47] nobody's [00:17:48] watching, and that's when all the [00:17:49] backroom deals [00:17:50] start to [00:17:51] [00:17:52] un-un-occur[00:17:53]

Bruce Anthony: [00:17:54] Why w- okay. [00:17:55] I [00:17:56] wanna go back [00:17:57] to [00:17:58] specifically The Washington [00:17:59] Post. Why would The [00:18:00] Washington Post [00:18:01] fight against [00:18:02] sending a [00:18:03] reporter to these, [00:18:04] uh, [00:18:05] local town [00:18:06] halls and meetings and [00:18:07] things like that? Is it [00:18:08] purely just an [00:18:09] economic [00:18:10] situation where they [00:18:11] don't wanna [00:18:12] pay, or do [00:18:13] they feel like [00:18:14] that news [00:18:15] isn't important [00:18:16] or isn't [00:18:17] salacious enough to [00:18:18] sell [00:18:19] newspapers?

Why Reporters Sit Through Boring Meetings to Find Big Stories 📝🏛️🔎

Miranda Spivack: You know, [00:18:20] what I'm talking about [00:18:21] really occurred 15 [00:18:22] years ago. I, [00:18:23] I couldn't even talk [00:18:24] to you really about the [00:18:25] current-- the Washington [00:18:26] Post in its current iteration [00:18:27] because [00:18:28] they basically [00:18:29] gutted local news [00:18:30] completely. It was already on [00:18:31] its way out, [00:18:32] but the last [00:18:33] six months [00:18:34] they've laid [00:18:35] off hundreds [00:18:36] of reporters, many [00:18:37] of them on local news.[00:18:38]

So [00:18:39] going back, I [00:18:40] would say 15 [00:18:41] years when people [00:18:42] were [00:18:43] discouraging reporters [00:18:44] from hanging [00:18:45] out with [00:18:46] you know, at [00:18:47] meetings, [00:18:48] I think it [00:18:49] was that [00:18:50] was this the, the best [00:18:51] use of our [00:18:52] time? Was it going to [00:18:53] be salacious [00:18:54] enough? We [00:18:55] don't want meeting [00:18:56] stories in the paper. They're [00:18:57] boring. [00:18:58] Well, you know, I, I [00:18:59] always had a different [00:19:00] view, which [00:19:01] was [00:19:02] you gotta hang out, [00:19:03] you gotta [00:19:04] listen.

You-- I got [00:19:05] one of my best [00:19:06] stories being at a [00:19:07] planning board [00:19:08] meeting about this [00:19:09] fancy [00:19:10] art [00:19:11] gallery, secret art [00:19:12] gallery in, in [00:19:13] Montgomery County, [00:19:14] Maryland, [00:19:15] where, you know, there [00:19:16] was millions of [00:19:17] dollars, [00:19:18] billions probably, [00:19:19] of [00:19:20] ex-exclusive art that wasn't [00:19:21] open to the [00:19:22] public. But the [00:19:23] owner, Mitch [00:19:24] Rales of the [00:19:25] Danaher Corporation, [00:19:26] wanted a [00:19:27] sewer, [00:19:28] so suddenly [00:19:29] he had to go [00:19:30] into the public [00:19:31] domain.

And, [00:19:32] and then, you know, [00:19:33] I wrote about this [00:19:34] guy, and [00:19:35] he actually gave me an [00:19:36] interview, which annoyed [00:19:37] the hell out of our [00:19:38] business reporters who had [00:19:39] tried for years to get [00:19:40] an interview with him, and [00:19:41] he'd never done it. [00:19:42] I said, "Well, I [00:19:43] cover local news. He [00:19:44] wants a sewer. [00:19:45] That's why." [00:19:46] But, you [00:19:47] know, I j- I just [00:19:48] never [00:19:49] a-agreed with that.

I think it [00:19:50] was a time [00:19:51] management thing and [00:19:52] also a [00:19:53] desire for the [00:19:54] big story. [00:19:55] But big [00:19:56] stories come out [00:19:57] of building [00:19:58] little stories[00:19:59]

Bruce Anthony: Right. [00:20:00] Yeah, I always [00:20:01] tell people [00:20:02] when I was [00:20:03] [00:20:04] a student [00:20:05] teacher and I [00:20:06] was teaching [00:20:07] history and people would say, [00:20:08] "History is boring," [00:20:09] I would say, "No, it's not, [00:20:10] because you [00:20:11] love the History [00:20:12] Channel, you love [00:20:13] documentaries." It's just the [00:20:14] way that you teach [00:20:15] history. If you teach it in a [00:20:16] storytelling, [00:20:17] people will, will [00:20:18] be interested in [00:20:19] it.

It, [00:20:20] local [00:20:21] or the s- small [00:20:22] stories [00:20:23] do often turn [00:20:24] into big stories, and you [00:20:25] watch on Netflix [00:20:26] all the time. [00:20:27] It's these little [00:20:28] stories in these little [00:20:29] small towns [00:20:30] that [00:20:31] become these big [00:20:32] documentaries, that [00:20:33] become these [00:20:34] [00:20:35] kind of, [00:20:36] uh, [00:20:37] pop culture [00:20:38] phenomenons, [00:20:39] and it starts [00:20:40] by [00:20:41] local [00:20:42] reporting.

Miranda Spivack: [00:20:43] Right

​

Bruce Anthony: [00:20:44] [00:20:45] [00:20:46] [00:20:47] [00:20:48] [00:20:49] [00:20:50] [00:20:51] What is [00:20:52] this-- What [00:20:53] is the common thread?

[00:20:54] You've got data [00:20:55] centers, you got [00:20:56] water systems, [00:20:57] you got [00:20:58] courtroom [00:20:59] algorithms, you got [00:21:00] dangerous roads. [00:21:01] What is [00:21:02] all this thread? Is this [00:21:03] all coming out of [00:21:04] these backroom [00:21:05] deals because these [00:21:06] city government [00:21:07] officials are no longer [00:21:08] being watched [00:21:09] because the local, [00:21:10] uh, [00:21:11] reporter isn't there to [00:21:12] watch them?[00:21:13]

Miranda Spivack: I think that [00:21:14] is generally the [00:21:15] case. Uh, [00:21:16] certainly in the case [00:21:17] of data centers, which [00:21:18] are proliferating [00:21:19] all over the [00:21:20] country and [00:21:21] are [00:21:22] generally those [00:21:23] agreements have been [00:21:24] made with state and local [00:21:25] governments [00:21:26] to [00:21:27] give the... [00:21:28] Often they're looking for [00:21:29] tax breaks actually, [00:21:30] which, you know, can really [00:21:31] tick people [00:21:32] off.

So [00:21:33] if your government's gonna [00:21:34] give away a big tax [00:21:35] break or sell [00:21:36] land at a [00:21:37] dis-discount or [00:21:38] whatever to a [00:21:39] data center [00:21:40] that [00:21:41] arguably [00:21:42] uses a lot of [00:21:43] electricity and a lot [00:21:44] of water and [00:21:45] maybe puts too much [00:21:46] stress on the [00:21:47] local [00:21:48] resources, [00:21:49] uh, [00:21:50] [00:21:51] governments

How Secret Data Center Deals Drain Public Money and Resources 💧⚡🏢

Miranda Spivack: might [00:21:52] want to do that [00:21:53] deal behind [00:21:54] closed doors and [00:21:55] often do [00:21:56] because they sign these [00:21:57] non-disclosure [00:21:58] agreements, which are also [00:21:59] proliferating around the [00:22:00] country.

And I'm, [00:22:01] you know, find them [00:22:02] sort of shocking [00:22:03] that [00:22:04] government officials would [00:22:05] agree to that. But what's [00:22:06] happening is these [00:22:07] companies, Amazon, [00:22:08] Microsoft, [00:22:09] uh, all the big [00:22:10] ones are [00:22:11] holding that [00:22:12] over local [00:22:13] governments and saying, "We're not [00:22:14] coming if, if, [00:22:15] uh, you don't [00:22:16] sign this NDA, this [00:22:17] non-disclosure [00:22:18] agreement."

[00:22:19] And [00:22:20] then the [00:22:21] question is, [00:22:22] okay, so you get a [00:22:23] data center, which is [00:22:24] this behemoth, [00:22:25] noisy, [00:22:26] energy-sucking [00:22:27] thing. [00:22:28] Is it producing [00:22:29] enough jobs, [00:22:30] good jobs, [00:22:31] well-paying jobs to make it [00:22:32] worth it? Or is it [00:22:33] sort of like a [00:22:34] warehouse, which, [00:22:35] you know, in Prince [00:22:36] George's County, where I [00:22:37] worked for a long time [00:22:38] for The Post, uh, that [00:22:39] was what was happening [00:22:40] there, is they were just getting [00:22:41] warehouses.

They weren't [00:22:42] getting [00:22:43] well-paying, you know, [00:22:44] jobs. And [00:22:45] so that's sort of the [00:22:46] next question. [00:22:47] If the government is gonna [00:22:48] give away all this stuff [00:22:49] and do it in [00:22:50] secrecy, [00:22:51] what, [00:22:52] what are the people getting [00:22:53] out of it? [00:22:54] And, and that's a lot [00:22:55] of what my book was [00:22:56] about, which was [00:22:57] these secrets [00:22:58] were [00:22:59] being, uh, [00:23:00] [00:23:01] agreed to, whether [00:23:02] it was a non-disclosure [00:23:03] agreement or [00:23:04] a dangerous [00:23:05] road, as you say, and [00:23:06] documents [00:23:07] about [00:23:08] car accidents [00:23:09] and other [00:23:10] data.[00:23:11]

You [00:23:12] know, what's the public [00:23:13] benefit to that? And [00:23:14] that's really the question. [00:23:15] And I think the [00:23:16] hard answer for [00:23:17] governments is, [00:23:18] we don't really [00:23:19] know. You know, we're [00:23:20] just sort of being [00:23:21] held up by these [00:23:22] companies [00:23:23] and, and we're [00:23:24] afraid because if [00:23:25] we turn them [00:23:26] down, [00:23:27] then maybe we are gonna [00:23:28] lose jobs. [00:23:29] And it, it's [00:23:30] very murky.

[00:23:31] And, but the [00:23:32] common thread is that I [00:23:33] think, A, the [00:23:34] government's... [00:23:35] It's easier to do [00:23:36] stuff in secret. You [00:23:37] know? You don't have the [00:23:38] annoying public looking [00:23:39] over your shoulder. [00:23:40] And there's no [00:23:41] question the public [00:23:42] can be annoying, but it's [00:23:43] usually 'cause they're so [00:23:44] frustrated that [00:23:45] they just [00:23:46] lose it. [00:23:47] But, you [00:23:48] know, I, I think [00:23:49] those NDAs should [00:23:50] just be outlawed [00:23:51] across the country, and [00:23:52] then it would be an [00:23:53] equal playing field.

[00:23:54] So if the data center [00:23:55] company wants to come in, no, nobody's gonna sign an [00:23:56] [00:23:57] NDA [00:23:58] with you. You can [00:23:59] stay here or you can go [00:24:00] next door, but nobody's [00:24:01] signing an NDA[00:24:02] [00:24:03]

Bruce Anthony: I, [00:24:04] so these

Why Government NDAs Keep Communities Locked Out of Major Deals 🤐📄🏛️

Bruce Anthony: [00:24:05] NDAs are [00:24:06] recent, right? And [00:24:07] are they [00:24:08] specifically [00:24:09] just for like [00:24:10] local [00:24:11] governments? Do [00:24:12] [00:24:13] state and [00:24:14] federal [00:24:15] agencies also [00:24:16] sign NDAs [00:24:17] with

Miranda Spivack: [00:24:18] Yeah.

Bruce Anthony: [00:24:19] corporations?

Miranda Spivack: Yeah, [00:24:20] yeah. I mean, [00:24:21] what I have [00:24:22] researched and what I [00:24:23] know is state [00:24:24] and local. [00:24:25] There is [00:24:26] you know, [00:24:27] actually the Trump [00:24:28] administration is trying to get [00:24:29] federal employees [00:24:30] to sign [00:24:31] NDAs just so [00:24:32] they won't leak, I [00:24:33] guess. But, [00:24:34] [00:24:35] you know, I can [00:24:36] speak to state and [00:24:37] local really. [00:24:38] They [00:24:39] are proliferating, [00:24:40] and they are being signed [00:24:41] by state [00:24:42] governments, local [00:24:43] governments [00:24:44] small [00:24:45] municipalities.[00:24:46]

And, [00:24:47] you know, these big [00:24:48] corporations are coming in and [00:24:49] saying, " We [00:24:50] want all these things [00:24:51] from you." [00:24:52] and [00:24:53] it's, you [00:24:54] know, "We don't want, we [00:24:55] don't wanna tip off our [00:24:56] competitors." [00:24:57] That's what they [00:24:58] claim is the rationale, [00:24:59] and there's something to [00:25:00] that. I can't deny [00:25:01] that. [00:25:02] But at some point [00:25:03] much earlier in the [00:25:04] process, this stuff [00:25:05] should become public, so [00:25:06] the public has a [00:25:07] chance to weigh in [00:25:08] and say, "Maybe we [00:25:09] don't want that [00:25:10] [00:25:11] [00:25:12] energy-guzzling data center [00:25:13] next door."[00:25:14]

Bruce Anthony: Picture me [00:25:15] naive and the [00:25:16] audience naive. What [00:25:17] is the benefit [00:25:18] for these government [00:25:19] officials to [00:25:20] sign these [00:25:21] NDAs for these [00:25:22] corporate,

Miranda Spivack: yeah. [00:25:23]

Bruce Anthony: corporations?[00:25:24]

Miranda Spivack: it [00:25:25] ranges. [00:25:26] I, I think it can [00:25:27] be that they're [00:25:28] saying, [00:25:29] "We've [00:25:30] brought a lot of [00:25:31] good [00:25:32] jobs to our [00:25:33] community, and thank... [00:25:34] you should be thanking [00:25:35] us." [00:25:36] You know, and then is [00:25:37] somebody putting cash in [00:25:38] their pocket? I [00:25:39] mean, that's [00:25:40] always the [00:25:41] question, it seems to me. What [00:25:42] is the benefit? [00:25:43] Or is it, [00:25:44] uh, a [00:25:45] lobbyist who [00:25:46] takes you on a [00:25:47] fancy boat ride [00:25:48] on, uh, the [00:25:49] s- on the Great [00:25:50] Salt Lake, which somebody [00:25:51] just told me about [00:25:52] yesterday?[00:25:53]

You know, it's [00:25:54] may not be [00:25:55] cash. It could just [00:25:56] be a good [00:25:57] meal. It g- uh, [00:25:58] who knows? [00:25:59] But I [00:26:00] think public [00:26:01] officials, [00:26:02] all of whom are [00:26:03] guided at least [00:26:04] by ethics [00:26:05] laws [00:26:06] and [00:26:07] regulations, just [00:26:08] need to [00:26:09] feel more [00:26:10] comfortable turning [00:26:11] down this stuff [00:26:12] because they are [00:26:13] representing [00:26:14] their communities. [00:26:15] They're not [00:26:16] representing Amazon[00:26:17]

Bruce Anthony: [00:26:18] Mm-hmm.

Losing Local News Can Increase Corruption and Public Secrecy 📰💰🚨

Bruce Anthony: These type [00:26:19] of things have [00:26:20] been happening though. [00:26:21] Like we could go all the [00:26:22] way back to, to [00:26:23] Tammany Hall, [00:26:24] right? And the [00:26:25] corruption that was there. [00:26:26] It, it, [00:26:27] it... I [00:26:28] don't know if you [00:26:29] have [00:26:30] data [00:26:31] one way or the other. [00:26:32] [00:26:33] Can you [00:26:34] pinpoint an [00:26:35] increase [00:26:36] [00:26:37] of [00:26:38] these, [00:26:39] these type of, [00:26:40] I don't know if it's [00:26:41] completely corruption, but [00:26:42] definitely on a [00:26:43] borderline type of [00:26:44] government, local [00:26:45] government corruption [00:26:46] since the [00:26:47] local [00:26:48] reporter and the local [00:26:49] newspapers have disappeared.[00:26:50]

Is there [00:26:51] an uptick [00:26:52] or [00:26:53] is it just [00:26:54] this is the way it's [00:26:55] always been, [00:26:56] maybe people's [00:26:57] eyes are open a little bit [00:26:58] more

Miranda Spivack: Yeah, [00:26:59] very good [00:27:00] question. [00:27:01] [00:27:02] I don't have [00:27:03] data of my [00:27:04] own, but there have [00:27:05] been some recent [00:27:06] studies that have [00:27:07] come out and [00:27:08] shown that when [00:27:09] local news [00:27:10] disappears, [00:27:11] corruption [00:27:12] of one sort or [00:27:13] another [00:27:14] rises. And [00:27:15] also that [00:27:16] [00:27:17] costs to [00:27:18] governments rise [00:27:19] because [00:27:20] their bond [00:27:21] ratings [00:27:22] change, uh, for some [00:27:23] reason. There's [00:27:24] skepticism [00:27:25] about [00:27:26] how [00:27:27] reliable [00:27:28] their [00:27:29] finances are.[00:27:30]

[00:27:31] So, you know, there's a [00:27:32] cost that way, [00:27:33] uh, according to [00:27:34] these studies, [00:27:35] and there's also, [00:27:36] [00:27:37] uh, you [00:27:38] know, some kind of [00:27:39] increase in corruption. What I [00:27:40] have been able to [00:27:41] document [00:27:42] myself is an [00:27:43] increase in [00:27:44] secrecy. That, I [00:27:45] think, has gotten [00:27:46] worse over [00:27:47] the last 20 [00:27:48] years or so. [00:27:49] And [00:27:50] so what does that [00:27:51] mean? Why are people [00:27:52] keeping secrets?

[00:27:53] Which is exactly what [00:27:54] you asked me. [00:27:55] And, and the [00:27:56] answer is [00:27:57] fear. [00:27:58] It's [00:27:59] potentially [00:28:00] corruption. [00:28:01] It's, [00:28:02] [00:28:03] just the [00:28:04] difficulty of [00:28:05] having to deal with the [00:28:06] public when you are [00:28:07] [00:28:08] under-resourced, which most state-- [00:28:09] most local [00:28:10] governments are, because [00:28:11] state legislatures [00:28:12] don't pony up [00:28:13] enough money for them [00:28:14] usually.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. [00:28:15]

Miranda Spivack: You know, it's a [00:28:16] combination of [00:28:17] factors, but the bottom [00:28:18] line is that [00:28:19] governments lo- state and local [00:28:20] governments usually go [00:28:21] into a defensive [00:28:22] crouch, and it's [00:28:23] just easier to [00:28:24] push the public [00:28:25] away.

It's [00:28:26] easier not to give out [00:28:27] documents and then [00:28:28] have a member of the [00:28:29] public fight back as [00:28:30] opposed to [00:28:31] giving out [00:28:32] something [00:28:33] incorrectly and then getting sued [00:28:34] for it. I mean, a [00:28:35] lot of it is fear, [00:28:36] I think, [00:28:37] but it doesn't [00:28:38] help, and it [00:28:39] doesn't help, [00:28:40] uh, [00:28:41] communities [00:28:42] understand [00:28:43] what's going on in their [00:28:44] communities and [00:28:45] mount a [00:28:46] campaign either to [00:28:47] support it or [00:28:48] oppose it.

W- you [00:28:49] know, without [00:28:50] information, you're [00:28:51] stuck

Bruce Anthony: Yeah. [00:28:52] Speaking [00:28:53] of communities, [00:28:54] it, it seems [00:28:55] like [00:28:56] there might be [00:28:57] a little bit of a [00:28:58] correlation between the [00:28:59] communities that are hit [00:29:00] hardest when [00:29:01] local press [00:29:02] disappears [00:29:03] and [00:29:04] those communities [00:29:05] usually being the [00:29:06] ones that have the least [00:29:07] power to fight [00:29:08] back.

is this [00:29:09] coincidence [00:29:10] or is this by [00:29:11] design?

Why Low-Income Communities Are Hurt Most by Government Secrecy 🏘️⚖️🔒

Miranda Spivack: [00:29:12] Well, [00:29:13] God, it's probably [00:29:14] both. [00:29:15] [00:29:16] I think that is [00:29:17] absolutely true. One [00:29:18] of the communities in [00:29:19] my book is [00:29:20] Uniontown, Alabama, which [00:29:21] is an historically [00:29:22] Black community. [00:29:23] Very, [00:29:24] uh, [00:29:25] you know, low [00:29:26] [00:29:27] employment, low [00:29:28] income, you [00:29:29] name it. Uh, [00:29:30] has [00:29:31] a big catfish [00:29:32] plant there, and [00:29:33] that is a source [00:29:34] of jobs, no [00:29:35] question about it.[00:29:36]

And the [00:29:37] catfish plant is [00:29:38] one of the, what [00:29:39] I would say over [00:29:40] users, the [00:29:41] community would say [00:29:42] polluters, [00:29:43] of the water and [00:29:44] sewer system. [00:29:45] And they [00:29:46] have been cited [00:29:47] for it, but they [00:29:48] usually get a slap on [00:29:49] the wrist [00:29:50] and, and it's [00:29:51] not a big fine, [00:29:52] and as a percentage [00:29:53] of their [00:29:54] costs and [00:29:55] income, it's not a [00:29:56] lot. And [00:29:57] so this [00:29:58] con-continues.[00:29:59]

[00:30:00] And when the [00:30:01] community members there [00:30:02] have tried to speak [00:30:03] up, they have been [00:30:04] shut down [00:30:05] at every [00:30:06] turn, either by the [00:30:07] federal government, which is [00:30:08] funding some of [00:30:09] the cha- [00:30:10] improvements [00:30:11] supposedly, or [00:30:12] by the state [00:30:13] government, which, you know, [00:30:14] they go to [00:30:15] Montgomery to [00:30:16] try to lobby [00:30:17] themselves and, [00:30:18] and can't even get a [00:30:19] moment to speak at a [00:30:20] public meeting.[00:30:21]

Uh, you know, [00:30:22] it's a, it's a mix, [00:30:23] but I would say [00:30:24] that [00:30:25] low-income [00:30:26] communities of color, [00:30:27] which aren't necessarily the [00:30:28] same,

[00:30:29] um, [00:30:30] are [00:30:31] harmed a [00:30:32] lot by the [00:30:33] secrecy. [00:30:34] And it is... [00:30:35] [00:30:36] You know, [00:30:37] I-- It's [00:30:38] interesting. I, [00:30:39] I, [00:30:40] I theorize a [00:30:41] little bit [00:30:42] myself [00:30:43] because I worked in, as a [00:30:44] white person in [00:30:45] Prince George's County, [00:30:46] Maryland, which is a [00:30:47] majority Black [00:30:48] community, majority [00:30:49] minority [00:30:50] community, that [00:30:51] there [00:30:52] is a lot of [00:30:53] residual [00:30:54] [00:30:55] hesitation [00:30:56] about speaking up [00:30:57] and that it goes [00:30:58] way back.

I mean, [00:30:59] it goes back, [00:31:00] you know, to Jim [00:31:01] Crow and that [00:31:02] these, some of the [00:31:03] folks [00:31:04] living there who I would [00:31:05] write about [00:31:06] or interact with [00:31:07] in the government are, [00:31:08] [00:31:09] are-- [00:31:10] don't [00:31:11] see their role or [00:31:12] they're afraid of [00:31:13] being shut down. [00:31:14] Whereas in a [00:31:15] white community or a [00:31:16] more white community [00:31:17] like Montgomery County, [00:31:18] Maryland, [00:31:19] across the way, not too [00:31:20] far away, [00:31:21] [00:31:22] [00:31:23] uh, community [00:31:24] activism [00:31:25] is [00:31:26] sort of [00:31:27] par for the [00:31:28] course, [00:31:29] and people are accustomed [00:31:30] to it, and they believe [00:31:31] they have a voice.

And, [00:31:32] you know, I-- [00:31:33] This is [00:31:34] total theory, and I [00:31:35] haven't [00:31:36] documented it. It's just a gut [00:31:37] feeling based on what [00:31:38] I saw

Bruce Anthony: [00:31:39] Yeah. [00:31:40] Let's

Five Ordinary People Who Became Accidental Community Watchdogs 👥🔍✊

Bruce Anthony: get to your [00:31:41] book. Let's get [00:31:42] to-- Let's-- We've [00:31:43] been talking about your book. Let, [00:31:44] let's get more in [00:31:45] depth about your [00:31:46] book. [00:31:47] [00:31:48] You've said it [00:31:49] that the [00:31:50] people in your book had [00:31:51] no credentials. [00:31:52] They weren't [00:31:53] lawyers. They didn't have any [00:31:54] press pass before [00:31:55] they [00:31:56] went out to start [00:31:57] to get proof. [00:31:58] [00:31:59] What did that ac- [00:32:00] what did that [00:32:01] feeling actually [00:32:02] feel like for them [00:32:03] while they were in that [00:32:04] process?

Miranda Spivack: Yeah. [00:32:05] It's a tough [00:32:06] process. It's, [00:32:07] [00:32:08] first of all, [00:32:09] I mean, and you [00:32:10] mentioned the, some of the [00:32:11] issues. It was, you [00:32:12] know, f- uh, [00:32:13] poison drinking [00:32:14] water, of [00:32:15] dangerous roads. These [00:32:16] are everyday [00:32:17] issues that I think [00:32:18] every community might [00:32:19] encounter. [00:32:20] Toxins [00:32:21] in firefighter [00:32:22] turnout gear, [00:32:23] hidden algorithms in [00:32:24] the criminal justice [00:32:25] system which are being [00:32:26] widely used and [00:32:27] abused, [00:32:28] and [00:32:29] as I said, the [00:32:30] sewer system [00:32:31] in Uniontown, [00:32:32] Alabama.

[00:32:33] And what happens [00:32:34] is [00:32:35] that [00:32:36] people in the [00:32:37] community, [00:32:38] either it happens to-- [00:32:39] something has happened to [00:32:40] them, which is [00:32:41] the case of the [00:32:42] poison drinking water. [00:32:43] Michael Hickey's [00:32:44] father died of a [00:32:45] weird form of [00:32:46] cancer, and [00:32:47] he [00:32:48] just began [00:32:49] researching this. He was [00:32:50] so bereft. This is [00:32:51] in Hoosick Falls, New [00:32:52] York, a small [00:32:53] community outside of [00:32:54] Albany.

[00:32:55] And he [00:32:56] discovers, [00:32:57] he's able to [00:32:58] discover that there are, [00:32:59] uh, forever chemicals [00:33:00] in the drinking water, [00:33:01] and he's able to [00:33:02] trace it back. It takes a [00:33:03] long time. [00:33:04] And what happened to [00:33:05] Michael was [00:33:06] initially, you know, [00:33:07] he was very [00:33:08] cautious, and he wanted [00:33:09] documentation and [00:33:10] proof. And [00:33:11] when he went to the [00:33:12] mayor, the mayor said, [00:33:13] "Oh, don't tell [00:33:14] anybody because [00:33:15] it's gonna give our [00:33:16] community a bad [00:33:17] reputation."

Of course, if you [00:33:18] allow people to move [00:33:19] into the community and they [00:33:20] discover there's poison [00:33:21] drinking water, [00:33:22] that would be a lot [00:33:23] more serious, it seems to [00:33:24] me, than a bad [00:33:25] reputation. But [00:33:26] so [00:33:27] he got pushed back [00:33:28] that way. When he [00:33:29] eventually was able to [00:33:30] prove his point, [00:33:31] which he did [00:33:32] by getting the water [00:33:33] tested [00:33:34] himself and then [00:33:35] also learning to use [00:33:36] public records [00:33:37] and getting [00:33:38] documents and data that [00:33:39] showed that the state [00:33:40] of New York was [00:33:41] aware of this problem [00:33:42] long before they went [00:33:43] public with it.[00:33:44]

But [00:33:45] you [00:33:46] know, it was [00:33:47] unpleasant. I mean, on the [00:33:48] one hand, people [00:33:49] was-- the mayor was [00:33:50] saying, "Don't tell anybody," and [00:33:51] on the other hand, [00:33:52] when the neighbors found [00:33:53] out what he [00:33:54] knew, they said, [00:33:55] "Why didn't you tell us [00:33:56] sooner?" [00:33:57] Uh, which is [00:33:58] understandable, but [00:33:59] it, you know, [00:34:00] it just, it's [00:34:01] very

How Firefighter Gear and Forever Chemicals Sparked a Movement 🧑‍🚒🧪📣

Miranda Spivack: tough. Or [00:34:02] Diane Cotter, who's [00:34:03] another forever [00:34:04] chemical person.

[00:34:05] Her-- From [00:34:06] Worcester, Mass. [00:34:07] Her, uh, husband got [00:34:08] prostate cancer. He [00:34:09] was a [00:34:10] firefighter. She [00:34:11] began to, [00:34:12] through a very long [00:34:13] process of [00:34:14] research, and she's a high [00:34:15] school graduate, no [00:34:16] experience at all [00:34:17] doing this, [00:34:18] [00:34:19] began to [00:34:20] recognize [00:34:21] that there was-- [00:34:22] were forever chemicals [00:34:23] in firefighter [00:34:24] protective gear, and that it [00:34:25] was conceivable, [00:34:26] still not [00:34:27] proven, that the [00:34:28] gear that was supposed to [00:34:29] protect them was [00:34:30] actually also one [00:34:31] of the many sources of [00:34:32] poisons that [00:34:33] firefighters [00:34:34] encounter.

I mean, going [00:34:35] into a burning [00:34:36] building, you're gonna [00:34:37] inhale a lot of junk, [00:34:38] and it's da- a [00:34:39] dangerous job, and the [00:34:40] rate of cancer [00:34:41] in the fire service is [00:34:42] higher than [00:34:43] the general [00:34:44] population. [00:34:45] But she [00:34:46] took enormous [00:34:47] amounts of grief [00:34:48] from the [00:34:49] industry, from the [00:34:50] union, until the union [00:34:51] finally came [00:34:52] around to her side, [00:34:53] and [00:34:54] public officials [00:34:55] wouldn't give her the time of [00:34:56] day and, you know, [00:34:57] really [00:34:58] labored [00:34:59] alone for a long [00:35:00] time.

There were [00:35:01] also, there was also [00:35:02] competition with [00:35:03] other people who were [00:35:04] discovering similar [00:35:05] problems, and then who was [00:35:06] gonna get the credit, and [00:35:07] just kinda [00:35:08] ugly stuff. [00:35:09] And, [00:35:10] and I [00:35:11] think that, you know, [00:35:12] you have to [00:35:13] be a certain [00:35:14] personality, which is you have [00:35:15] to be angry [00:35:16] because you're getting [00:35:17] rebuffed. You have to [00:35:18] be really [00:35:19] tenacious.

[00:35:20] You have to really [00:35:21] understand, as [00:35:22] all these people did, how [00:35:23] to do [00:35:24] research. Huge, [00:35:25] huge. I mean, Diane [00:35:26] was reading, and [00:35:27] Michael were both [00:35:28] reading, [00:35:29] uh, [00:35:30] chemical studies, you [00:35:31] know, in, [00:35:32] in very [00:35:33] complicated [00:35:34] language that they learned [00:35:35] to decipher. [00:35:36] And then you [00:35:37] have to learn to [00:35:38] organize your community, [00:35:39] which ultimately they [00:35:40] have done, [00:35:41] and, [00:35:42] uh, and learn to [00:35:43] lobby and learn, you know, [00:35:44] the value of public [00:35:45] shaming, which is [00:35:46] where local news [00:35:47] comes in.

If you can't [00:35:48] get somebody to cover [00:35:49] this [00:35:50] and embarrass the [00:35:51] public officials who've been [00:35:52] ignoring this [00:35:53] problem [00:35:54] what do you [00:35:55] have? But, you know, [00:35:56] Diane used [00:35:57] Facebook [00:35:58] not so much [00:35:59] to get the word [00:36:00] out about what her [00:36:01] findings were, but [00:36:02] as a communication [00:36:03] tool. I mean, she sent [00:36:04] 22,000 [00:36:05] emails over [00:36:06] time [00:36:07] to various [00:36:08] public officials [00:36:09] and firefighters [00:36:10] and, you know, began [00:36:11] to build a movement.

And [00:36:12] actually, [00:36:13] that one's been [00:36:14] relatively successful. A [00:36:15] lot of cities [00:36:16] and communities are [00:36:17] now trying to [00:36:18] buy gear that does not [00:36:19] have forever [00:36:20] chemicals in it, but is [00:36:21] still going to [00:36:22] protect firefighters[00:36:23]

Bruce Anthony: You said [00:36:24] a lot of the [00:36:25] people, or, or at least [00:36:26] two of them that you [00:36:27] mentioned, got [00:36:28] access to [00:36:29] public rep- [00:36:30] records. Does the [00:36:31] public [00:36:32] technically have [00:36:33] access to the [00:36:34] records that, that [00:36:35] they can hold [00:36:36] the government [00:36:37] accountable?

Miranda Spivack: [00:36:38] Th-

Public Records That Help You Hold Local Government Accountable 📄🏛️✅

Miranda Spivack: yes, [00:36:39] and this is actually [00:36:40] a big part of the [00:36:41] last chapter of the [00:36:42] book, which is sort of a [00:36:43] how-to chapter [00:36:44] called "The Playbook for [00:36:45] Accidental Activists." [00:36:46] And I talk a [00:36:47] lot about public [00:36:48] records. I think what [00:36:49] happens, what I've [00:36:50] discovered, [00:36:51] as a journalist, I [00:36:52] know how [00:36:53] to do this, and [00:36:54] it certainly was part of [00:36:55] my work over [00:36:56] time.

[00:36:57] But most [00:36:58] people [00:36:59] don't, and they don't [00:37:00] realize that if you go [00:37:01] to the city council [00:37:02] meeting and they hold up a [00:37:03] document and [00:37:04] they're, say, "We [00:37:05] have this study," [00:37:06] that [00:37:07] becomes public [00:37:08] immediately. You [00:37:09] can get that. You [00:37:10] should get that. You don't [00:37:11] have to rely on [00:37:12] whatever they're telling you [00:37:13] it says. You can [00:37:14] go get it.[00:37:15]

[00:37:16] Contracts, you [00:37:17] know, police [00:37:18] reports, I mean, [00:37:19] all of this [00:37:20] stuff is, [00:37:21] should be [00:37:22] available to the [00:37:23] public. [00:37:24] Citations by [00:37:25] environmental [00:37:26] agencies against, [00:37:27] you know, [00:37:28] various [00:37:29] polluters. Those things [00:37:30] are public. You [00:37:31] have to know where [00:37:32] to get them, and [00:37:33] you have to figure out how [00:37:34] to ask for them. [00:37:35] But in [00:37:36] general, every s- [00:37:37] every state, [00:37:38] territory, you name it, and the [00:37:39] federal government have [00:37:40] public records laws.[00:37:41]

And they, [00:37:42] the [00:37:43] advice to governments [00:37:44] by the [00:37:45] law is to err [00:37:46] on the side of [00:37:47] transparency

Bruce Anthony: [00:37:48] [00:37:49] Hmm. I wanna talk [00:37:50] about the [00:37:51] people in your [00:37:52] book [00:37:53] and [00:37:54] accessing of these [00:37:55] records [00:37:56] because [00:37:57] I talk to a lot [00:37:58] of people [00:37:59] just in my personal [00:38:00] life, and [00:38:01] they're always [00:38:02] coming to me, [00:38:03] "Hey, Bruce, did you hear [00:38:04] about this story? [00:38:05] Did you hear about [00:38:06] this? Did you hear about [00:38:07] that?" And, and [00:38:08] me being the [00:38:09] natural, the [00:38:10] naturally [00:38:11] wanting to [00:38:12] question everything [00:38:13] person that I [00:38:14] am would say, "Well, that doesn't [00:38:15] sound right. [00:38:16] [00:38:17] What did the article [00:38:18] say? What'd this [00:38:19] news report say?" "Oh, I [00:38:20] don't know. I just read the [00:38:21] headline." [00:38:22] What type of a [00:38:23] person [00:38:24] [00:38:25] is a person that [00:38:26] will go [00:38:27] and search [00:38:28] out these records, that [00:38:29] will go and [00:38:30] read these [00:38:31] complex documents when [00:38:32] they only have a high school [00:38:33] education, [00:38:34] [00:38:35] go through it, [00:38:36] figure out what [00:38:37] it's trying to say, [00:38:38] learn from it, [00:38:39] and keep [00:38:40] on digging?

Because [00:38:41] it seems [00:38:42] like [00:38:43] [00:38:44] as [00:38:45] technology grows, [00:38:46] we are [00:38:47] becoming more and more [00:38:48] dependent on [00:38:49] technology and becoming [00:38:50] lazier and lazier or [00:38:51] doing the things that [00:38:52] we actually do. People [00:38:53] all the time say, "I read a [00:38:54] book." No, you [00:38:55] listened to a [00:38:56] book. You didn't actually [00:38:57] read the book. So [00:38:58] what type of person [00:38:59] is it [00:39:00] that will go [00:39:01] these [00:39:02] documents and keep on [00:39:03] fighting?[00:39:04]

Miranda Spivack: You know, I [00:39:05] don't think these [00:39:06] people knew that they [00:39:07] were any [00:39:08] particular type of [00:39:09] person at the outset [00:39:10] of their [00:39:11] discovery of problems in [00:39:12] their community. [00:39:13] But, [00:39:14] but [00:39:15] as I [00:39:16] watched their stories [00:39:17] unfold, and a lot [00:39:18] of this I cover- [00:39:19] I watched [00:39:20] o- as it was [00:39:21] occurring and, you know, [00:39:22] sort of [00:39:23] [00:39:24] wondering how these [00:39:25] problems were gonna [00:39:26] be resolved, and [00:39:27] that's [00:39:28] pretty much what the book is [00:39:29] about.

And in the [00:39:30] case of [00:39:31] Uniontown, Alabama, the [00:39:32] problems still are not [00:39:33] resolved, [00:39:34] and I had to sort of [00:39:35] leave that chapter [00:39:36] hanging because it, [00:39:37] you know... [00:39:38] [00:39:39] I [00:39:40] think [00:39:41] anger [00:39:42] is a big driver [00:39:43] here. And I [00:39:44] think the [00:39:45] minute you get [00:39:46] pushback from [00:39:47] either a local [00:39:48] company or, you [00:39:49] know, [00:39:50] you are on hold [00:39:51] for three hours [00:39:52] trying to solve a [00:39:53] problem or [00:39:54] whatever, you [00:39:55] begin to think [00:39:56] the system is [00:39:57] completely messed [00:39:58] up.

[00:39:59] And [00:40:00] when I [00:40:01] went to [00:40:02] the city clerk's [00:40:03] office and I said, [00:40:04] "I wanna see the [00:40:05] contract that [00:40:06] you have [00:40:07] with [00:40:08] so and so [00:40:09] who's picking up my [00:40:10] trash, except they're not [00:40:11] picking it up," [00:40:12] [00:40:13] uh, and you- [00:40:14] you're told, "Oh, it's [00:40:15] gonna take months to dig [00:40:16] out that contract," which [00:40:17] of course is [00:40:18] illegal because [00:40:19] the [00:40:20] maximum state [00:40:21] response is [00:40:22] 30 days.

The [00:40:23] federal response is 20, and [00:40:24] a lot of [00:40:25] communities [00:40:26] and cities and [00:40:27] states w- have to [00:40:28] respond in 10 days. [00:40:29] Doesn't mean they have to [00:40:30] give you what you're [00:40:31] asking for, but at least they have [00:40:32] to acknowledge that [00:40:33] you have made a request [00:40:34] and that they're trying to [00:40:35] fulfill it.[00:40:36]

But [00:40:37] I think, I [00:40:38] think anger and [00:40:39] frustration really [00:40:40] drive them and, and they're [00:40:41] also...

You know, there's [00:40:42] a cliché, "I'm [00:40:43] from the government, and I'm here [00:40:44] to help you," and [00:40:45] it's not turning out to [00:40:46] be the case. And [00:40:47] I think people are [00:40:48] a little surprised [00:40:49] by that and, [00:40:50] and [00:40:51] [00:40:52] turn out to be [00:40:53] crusaders in a [00:40:54] way that they [00:40:55] never even knew they [00:40:56] had it in them. [00:40:57] And, and I th- I [00:40:58] think it's, uh, an [00:40:59] evolutionary [00:41:00] process for people.[00:41:01]

I hope the last [00:41:02] chapter of my-- I mean, the [00:41:03] stories in my book I think [00:41:04] explain this all, [00:41:05] but the [00:41:06] last chapter in [00:41:07] particular, if you were to [00:41:08] scroll to that, you would [00:41:09] say, "Okay, do [00:41:10] this, this, this and [00:41:11] this, and this is how you [00:41:12] can do it."

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:13] Mm-hmm.

​

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:14] [00:41:15] [00:41:16] [00:41:17] [00:41:18] [00:41:19] [00:41:20] [00:41:21] What [00:41:22] is the toll it [00:41:23] takes,

Miranda Spivack: Yeah. [00:41:24] Hi.

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:25] this fight that [00:41:26] they Yeah. go [00:41:27] through, what is the toll it [00:41:28] takes on them [00:41:29] yeah. It, [00:41:30] it's, it's a lot. [00:41:31] I would [00:41:32] be, [00:41:33] uh, [00:41:34] lying if [00:41:35] I didn't [00:41:36] say these people [00:41:37] suffered. I think they did [00:41:38] suffer, and they are [00:41:39] suffering. [00:41:40] [00:41:41] And [00:41:42] [00:41:43] that's a choice you [00:41:44] gotta make. I [00:41:45] mean, what, [00:41:46] what is it worth [00:41:47] to you to [00:41:48] solve this [00:41:49] problem? Can you [00:41:50] get help from your [00:41:51] neighbors and shoulder [00:41:52] some of the [00:41:53] responsibility?

Miranda Spivack: Which [00:41:54] Richard Baltuck [00:41:55] in, uh, [00:41:56] Maryland did when [00:41:57] he was [00:41:58] looking, trying to [00:41:59] sort of [00:42:00] deconstruct this, [00:42:01] [00:42:02] [00:42:03] situation where [00:42:04] the state of [00:42:05] Maryland's [00:42:06] transportation department was [00:42:07] refusing to give [00:42:08] him [00:42:09] information that your tax [00:42:10] dollars had paid [00:42:11] for. It was just, [00:42:12] [00:42:13] anyway [00:42:14] it, [00:42:15] it just, [00:42:16] you know, it's hard work. [00:42:17] He was able to [00:42:18] get his neighbors [00:42:19] together and do a lot [00:42:20] of the research, and, [00:42:21] uh,

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Miranda Spivack: [00:42:22] Diane [00:42:23] somewhat has been [00:42:24] able to do that.

Michael [00:42:25] Hickey pretty [00:42:26] much operated [00:42:27] alone for a long [00:42:28] time. His marriage broke [00:42:29] up. I don't know if it was [00:42:30] related or not. [00:42:31] But, you [00:42:32] know, th- these are [00:42:33] tough, [00:42:34] tough [00:42:35] [00:42:36] circumstances. And when you [00:42:37] have the weight of the [00:42:38] government and private [00:42:39] corporations [00:42:40] arrayed [00:42:41] against you, that, you [00:42:42] know, you really have to think [00:42:43] hard.

Is this [00:42:44] worth my [00:42:45] time? Is it, [00:42:46] uh, [00:42:47] am I really-- Where am [00:42:48] I gonna come out on [00:42:49] this? Am I [00:42:50] just gonna be [00:42:51] defeated by, by the [00:42:52] end?[00:42:53]

Bruce Anthony: [00:42:54] Financially, it, [00:42:55] financially it [00:42:56] costs as well, [00:42:57] right? Because you said [00:42:58] the, the [00:42:59] gentleman in New [00:43:00] York had to [00:43:01] personally [00:43:02] pay for the [00:43:03] water to get [00:43:04] tested.

Miranda Spivack: [00:43:05] You did

Bruce Anthony: there [00:43:06] any type of, when [00:43:07] he proves it, a [00:43:08] reimbursement

Miranda Spivack: [00:43:09] Yeah, [00:43:10] that's a good [00:43:11] question. Uh, [00:43:12] they have [00:43:13] gotten-- there have [00:43:14] been some settlements in [00:43:15] that case with [00:43:16] the big [00:43:17] polluters. [00:43:18] And so [00:43:19] [00:43:20] individuals, including [00:43:21] Michael, got some [00:43:22] money from those [00:43:23] settlements. I don't think [00:43:24] it ever [00:43:25] will compensate him [00:43:26] for his time. [00:43:27] It's probably like a [00:43:28] penny an hour or [00:43:29] something like that.

I mean, it [00:43:30] just... [00:43:31] But, but [00:43:32] that settlement [00:43:33] wasn't because he [00:43:34] unearthed the [00:43:35] problem. The settlement [00:43:36] was [00:43:37] because these [00:43:38] companies were [00:43:39] accepting some form of [00:43:40] responsibility for [00:43:41] the pollution and [00:43:42] therefore paying [00:43:43] damages essentially. [00:43:44] But [00:43:45] you know, Ben [00:43:46] Eaton in [00:43:47] Uniontown, Alabama, I [00:43:48] mean, he has just [00:43:49] taken all [00:43:50] kinds of grief [00:43:51] and [00:43:52] yet, [00:43:53] uh, he [00:43:54] persists [00:43:55] and has [00:43:56] really worked hard and [00:43:57] has built [00:43:58] something of a coalition, [00:43:59] so that helps.

[00:44:00] But, you know, the [00:44:01] only way you're gonna get [00:44:02] money back, [00:44:03] and it w- would [00:44:04] usually be your [00:44:05] lawyers, is if you [00:44:06] filed a lawsuit for a [00:44:07] public records [00:44:08] case [00:44:09] and they turned you [00:44:10] down, but in the end [00:44:11] they had to give it to you [00:44:12] because you went to [00:44:13] court, and it, again, [00:44:14] depends on the [00:44:15] state. It's not true in [00:44:16] every state.

You [00:44:17] can get some [00:44:18] compensation. [00:44:19] Usually goes to the [00:44:20] lawyers,

Bruce Anthony: [00:44:21] Hmm.

Miranda Spivack: but, [00:44:22] [00:44:23] always win. Oh, [00:44:24] yeah.[00:44:25]

Bruce Anthony: You've been

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Bruce Anthony: doing [00:44:26] this for 40 [00:44:27] years, [00:44:28] and I know [00:44:29] there's, s- there's a [00:44:30] little part [00:44:31] that we're s- [00:44:32] journalists, which we [00:44:33] were taught, I think [00:44:34] it was one of the first [00:44:35] lessons that I learned, you gotta [00:44:36] remove your [00:44:37] emotion,

Miranda Spivack: [00:44:38] Yeah

Bruce Anthony: and you gotta [00:44:39] just be [00:44:40] objective, get the [00:44:41] facts. [00:44:42] But [00:44:43] hearing these [00:44:44] stories, even for [00:44:45] 40 [00:44:46] years, has [00:44:47] to affect you [00:44:48] [00:44:49] emotionally.[00:44:50]

What does [00:44:51] that look like [00:44:52] for you on [00:44:53] a day-to-day [00:44:54] basis [00:44:55] when you're getting [00:44:56] new information [00:44:57] and you're [00:44:58] hearing these stories [00:44:59] and these struggles these [00:45:00] people are, are [00:45:01] going through, [00:45:02] but [00:45:03] you have a job to [00:45:04] do?

Miranda Spivack: Yeah.[00:45:05]

Well, you [00:45:06] know, yeah, [00:45:07] it's an interesting question [00:45:08] because some of [00:45:09] what people in the [00:45:10] book told [00:45:11] me wasn't [00:45:12] accurate, and I [00:45:13] had to vet it, [00:45:14] and I did vet [00:45:15] it, and I was able [00:45:16] to correct it, [00:45:17] you know, and didn't [00:45:18] write it. [00:45:19] And it wasn't because [00:45:20] they did that out of [00:45:21] malice. I think they [00:45:22] did it, either [00:45:23] they were trying to [00:45:24] please me in a [00:45:25] way, you know, they wanted [00:45:26] the story to go a [00:45:27] certain way or, [00:45:28] or they just [00:45:29] made a mistake.

[00:45:30] And, you know, but it [00:45:31] was innocent, I [00:45:32] think. [00:45:33] [00:45:34] So, [00:45:35] you know, I'm [00:45:36] always on the alert, [00:45:37] I guess [00:45:38] which [00:45:39] I suppose [00:45:40] means a high [00:45:41] state of, [00:45:42] well, whatever, [00:45:43] I don't know, [00:45:44] tension, whatever.

Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. [00:45:45] [00:45:46]

Miranda Spivack: You know, I, [00:45:47] I, I [00:45:48] certainly [00:45:49] can empathize [00:45:50] with these folks [00:45:51] but still try to [00:45:52] tell their story [00:45:53] straight. [00:45:54] And, [00:45:55] [00:45:56] it's, you, you know, [00:45:57] you're raising an interesting [00:45:58] issue because I am [00:45:59] temporarily [00:46:00] right [00:46:01] now, uh, visiting [00:46:02] my daughter and [00:46:03] her family [00:46:04] in Berkeley, [00:46:05] California, where there is [00:46:06] an enormous [00:46:07] unhoused [00:46:08] problem, [00:46:09] and this [00:46:10] is an affluent [00:46:11] community.

And I'm sitting [00:46:12] here, I mean, I'm [00:46:13] gonna go to a city [00:46:14] council meeting, I think, [00:46:15] trying to figure out [00:46:16] why aren't they solving [00:46:17] it? You know, [00:46:18] why are [00:46:19] people living on [00:46:20] the street and in [00:46:21] doorways [00:46:22] in certain parts of the [00:46:23] city? Not all, you know, [00:46:24] not in the more affluent [00:46:25] part of the city. But, [00:46:26] and, and [00:46:27] I'm thinking, [00:46:28] "This is just [00:46:29] [00:46:30] insane."

[00:46:31] And, you know, I [00:46:32] guess what my [00:46:33] work has done is [00:46:34] en- I hope [00:46:35] enabled me to be a [00:46:36] good [00:46:37] citizen too

Bruce Anthony: Hmm. [00:46:38] [00:46:39] What, [00:46:40] what goes through [00:46:41] your mind [00:46:42] [00:46:43] when, for instance, [00:46:44] the [00:46:45] people that are [00:46:46] telling you this [00:46:47] story, it doesn't [00:46:48] quite check out. It's not [00:46:49] exactly what [00:46:50] they said. [00:46:51] You vetted it [00:46:52] and, and, and [00:46:53] for ver- [00:46:54] whatever reason, [00:46:55] they mess up the [00:46:56] story [00:46:57] and you're like, "Oh,[00:46:58]

Miranda Spivack: [00:46:59] Yeah.

Bruce Anthony: isn't true [00:47:00] what you told me, [00:47:01] and

here's, [00:47:02] here's the facts." [00:47:03] Like, what is that like when, [00:47:04] when these people are [00:47:05] opening up to you [00:47:06]

Miranda Spivack: Right

Bruce Anthony: to come [00:47:07] back and say, "You, [00:47:08] this, this [00:47:09] wasn't

Miranda Spivack: Right. [00:47:10] Right.

Bruce Anthony: [00:47:11] me"?

Miranda Spivack: [00:47:12] Well, I mean, I [00:47:13] have to be very [00:47:14] straightforward about that, [00:47:15] and, and also [00:47:16] because I wanna [00:47:17] re-verify, you know, let [00:47:18] them have a chance [00:47:19] to say, [00:47:20] "Okay, [00:47:21] [00:47:22] oh, you [00:47:23] know, maybe I did [00:47:24] mess that up, and here's [00:47:25] how I got that [00:47:26] information." But, [00:47:27] you know, and then I'm saying, "Well, [00:47:28] here's how I got that [00:47:29] information, [00:47:30] so let's try to match [00:47:31] this up."

I, [00:47:32] I just think you have to be [00:47:33] careful. [00:47:34] And, [00:47:35] [00:47:36] y- you know, [00:47:37] I don't-- [00:47:38] I, I, I would [00:47:39] ascribe malicious [00:47:40] intentions [00:47:41] to [00:47:42] somebody [00:47:43] who's more expert [00:47:44] at this. You know, [00:47:45] a member of [00:47:46] Congress, for [00:47:47] example, a president of the [00:47:48] United States, for [00:47:49] example. People who [00:47:50] lie regularly. [00:47:51] [00:47:52] But I-- you know, when [00:47:53] you're dealing with [00:47:54] people who are not [00:47:55] experienced, and they're [00:47:56] not experienced talking to [00:47:57] a journalist [00:47:58] either,

[00:47:59] um, [00:48:00] you know, you just [00:48:01] try to do your [00:48:02] best and, and [00:48:03] help them do their [00:48:04] best.

I think it's, [00:48:05] it, it is [00:48:06] a [00:48:07] relationship. It's not [00:48:08] [00:48:09] hostile in this [00:48:10] case, and, [00:48:11] you know, I'm just [00:48:12] trying to help [00:48:13] them tell [00:48:14] their story. Not the [00:48:15] best version of [00:48:16] their story, but

Bruce Anthony: [00:48:17] But their story, yeah. [00:48:18] You

Local Organizing Gives Ordinary Citizens Real Political Power 👥🗳️💪

Bruce Anthony: [00:48:19] said [00:48:20] you just wanna [00:48:21] be a good [00:48:22] citizen, and that's kind of the [00:48:23] reason why you're probably gonna go [00:48:24] to that city council [00:48:25] meeting in [00:48:26] Berkeley. It's [00:48:27] probably also the reason why [00:48:28] you wrote this book and the [00:48:29] reason why you became a [00:48:30] journalist at [00:48:31] large. [00:48:32] What is it [00:48:33] that you want people [00:48:34] to get [00:48:35] from your [00:48:36] book?[00:48:37] [00:48:38]

Miranda Spivack: Well, I [00:48:39] think that [00:48:40] [00:48:41] people generally [00:48:42] don't have a sense [00:48:43] of how much power [00:48:44] they actually hold, [00:48:45] [00:48:46] and [00:48:47] that public [00:48:48] officials [00:48:49] will [00:48:50] listen. There's-- [00:48:51] They will especially [00:48:52] listen if there are 50 [00:48:53] of you, not [00:48:54] two of you. [00:48:55] And [00:48:56] so you need to [00:48:57] learn to [00:48:58] organize. You need to [00:48:59] understand what you're [00:49:00] entitled to, what your [00:49:01] tax dollars have [00:49:02] paid for that you are [00:49:03] entitled to learn [00:49:04] about, [00:49:05] and that [00:49:06] you can make a [00:49:07] difference.

And I, [00:49:08] and I think the, [00:49:09] that's what the book [00:49:10] shows is that even in [00:49:11] very difficult [00:49:12] times, which [00:49:13] we are in, [00:49:14] you [00:49:15] can make a [00:49:16] difference, especially at [00:49:17] the state and local [00:49:18] level. And then when you do it [00:49:19] there, whether it's an [00:49:20] environmental [00:49:21] issue or [00:49:22] a safety [00:49:23] issue or an [00:49:24] education issue, [00:49:25] it can ripple [00:49:26] nationally.

[00:49:27] And so [00:49:28] it's okay to [00:49:29] start local, and [00:49:30] that's where I think [00:49:31] you can have the biggest [00:49:32] [00:49:33] impact

Bruce Anthony: miranda, [00:49:34] I think that's a [00:49:35] perfect way to end this [00:49:36] conversation.[00:49:37]

Uh, I [00:49:38] love everything that you [00:49:39] said. I, I just [00:49:40] like speaking to journalists, [00:49:41] so thank you so [00:49:42] much for coming on the [00:49:43] show. Thank you so [00:49:44] much for talking [00:49:45] to us about your book, [00:49:46] and thank you so much [00:49:47] for talking to [00:49:48] how we [00:49:49] can be [00:49:50] good [00:49:51] neighbors [00:49:52] to each other [00:49:53] by just [00:49:54] going and fighting the [00:49:55] power, as

Miranda Spivack: [00:49:56] Yeah

Bruce Anthony: would say.[00:49:57]

But thank you so much for [00:49:58] coming on the show. It was [00:49:59] really my pleasure

Miranda Spivack: [00:50:00] Oh, it was great. [00:50:01] Thanks a lot, Bruce. I [00:50:02] really enjoyed it[00:50:03]

Bruce Anthony: [00:50:04] Absolutely

Closing: The Truth Is Often Buried Where Nobody Thinks to Look 🔎📄📰

Bruce Anthony: Before we [00:50:05] end, I know, I [00:50:06] know, I know I'm gonna [00:50:07] harp on something [00:50:08] that I said at the top, [00:50:09] that I [00:50:10] reiterated [00:50:11] in the interview, [00:50:12] [00:50:13] but I [00:50:14] still feel [00:50:15] like I need to [00:50:16] continuously [00:50:17] stress it, [00:50:18] especially [00:50:19] where we are in [00:50:20] today's [00:50:21] society. [00:50:22] Real journalism [00:50:23] is not about winning an [00:50:24] argument. [00:50:25] It's not about [00:50:26] collecting only the [00:50:27] details that confirm what [00:50:28] you already [00:50:29] believe. [00:50:30] It's not a [00:50:31] panel of people shouting [00:50:32] over one another [00:50:33] or a [00:50:34] personality turning every [00:50:35] story into a [00:50:36] performance. [00:50:37] [00:50:38] Journalism at its [00:50:39] best [00:50:40] is the patient [00:50:41] and sometimes [00:50:42] uncomfortable [00:50:43] pursuit [00:50:44] of what is true.[00:50:45]

It [00:50:46] is asking [00:50:47] another question when the [00:50:48] first answer [00:50:49] does not make sense. [00:50:50] It is [00:50:51] checking the document [00:50:52] instead of trusting [00:50:53] the headline. [00:50:54] It's following the [00:50:55] evidence even [00:50:56] when that evidence [00:50:57] leads somewhere you [00:50:58] didn't expect [00:50:59] or [00:51:00] forces you to [00:51:01] admit that your [00:51:02] original assumption [00:51:03] was wrong. [00:51:04] That [00:51:05] work matters [00:51:06] because the [00:51:07] truth does not [00:51:08] always announce [00:51:09] itself loudly.[00:51:10]

Sometimes the [00:51:11] truth is sitting [00:51:12] inside a contract [00:51:13] that most people do not [00:51:14] know exists. [00:51:15] Sometimes it [00:51:16] is buried in [00:51:17] technical [00:51:18] reports, government [00:51:19] records, [00:51:20] legal agreements, [00:51:21] environmental [00:51:22] testing, or a [00:51:23] decision made in a [00:51:24] meeting that almost [00:51:25] nobody attended. [00:51:26] And [00:51:27] when local [00:51:28] journalism [00:51:29] disappears, so does [00:51:30] one of the strongest [00:51:31] lines of defense [00:51:32] ordinary people [00:51:33] have against [00:51:34] being ignored.[00:51:35]

We [00:51:36] lose the reporters [00:51:37] who know the history of [00:51:38] the neighborhood. [00:51:39] We lose the [00:51:40] people who [00:51:41] recognize when [00:51:42] officials' [00:51:43] explanation doesn't [00:51:44] match what happened [00:51:45] last year. [00:51:46] We [00:51:47] lose the person [00:51:48] sitting through the [00:51:49] boring meeting long [00:51:50] enough to hear the one [00:51:51] sentence that [00:51:52] changes [00:51:53] everything. That [00:51:54] is the reason why [00:51:55] Miranda Spivak's [00:51:56] work is [00:51:57] so [00:51:58] important. In Backroom [00:51:59] Deals in Our [00:52:00] Backyards, [00:52:01] she doesn't only [00:52:02] examine what [00:52:03] institutions were able to [00:52:04] conceal, [00:52:05] she centers the people [00:52:06] who refuse to [00:52:07] accept that [00:52:08] concealment.

[00:52:09] These were ordinary [00:52:10] people whose lives [00:52:11] were interrupted by [00:52:12] something that felt [00:52:13] wrong. They [00:52:14] didn't begin [00:52:15] with [00:52:16] influence, [00:52:17] advanced training, [00:52:18] or a powerful [00:52:19] organization behind [00:52:20] them. [00:52:21] They began with [00:52:22] questions. [00:52:23] Then [00:52:24] came the research. [00:52:25] Then [00:52:26] came the [00:52:27] resistance. [00:52:28] Then came the [00:52:29] moment when they had to [00:52:30] decide whether [00:52:31] being dismissed, [00:52:32] [00:52:33] criticized, [00:52:34] isolated, or [00:52:35] exhausted was [00:52:36] enough to make them [00:52:37] stop, [00:52:38] and instead [00:52:39] they kept going.[00:52:40]

[00:52:41] That doesn't mean that the [00:52:42] fight was easy [00:52:43] or that every [00:52:44] problem was neatly [00:52:45] solved. Some [00:52:46] of these people paid a [00:52:47] serious personal [00:52:48] price for [00:52:49] demanding answers. [00:52:50] They [00:52:51] sacrificed time, [00:52:52] money, [00:52:53] relationships, [00:52:54] comfort, [00:52:55] and [00:52:56] pieces of their own [00:52:57] peace. [00:52:58] But their [00:52:59] stories remind [00:53:00] us that [00:53:01] expertise can be learned. [00:53:02] Public [00:53:03] records belong to the [00:53:04] public, [00:53:05] and one determined [00:53:06] person can force a [00:53:07] community to [00:53:08] confront something [00:53:09] it would rather [00:53:10] avoid.

[00:53:11] Miranda's book [00:53:12] also reminds [00:53:13] us that being [00:53:14] heard is rarely [00:53:15] just about having the [00:53:16] truth. [00:53:17] Sometimes you can have [00:53:18] the evidence and [00:53:19] still struggle to [00:53:20] get anyone to [00:53:21] listen. [00:53:22] That's where [00:53:23] journalism becomes [00:53:24] more than an [00:53:25] industry. It becomes a [00:53:26] public service. [00:53:27] It gives [00:53:28] people language for [00:53:29] what they are [00:53:30] experiencing.

It connects [00:53:31] one person's [00:53:32] struggle to a larger [00:53:33] pattern. It [00:53:34] places information [00:53:35] in front of a [00:53:36] community that powerful [00:53:37] people may have [00:53:38] preferred to keep [00:53:39] scattered, [00:53:40] confusing, [00:53:41] or [00:53:42] invisible. [00:53:43] So I encourage you to [00:53:44] support Miranda's [00:53:45] work and pick up [00:53:46] Backroom Deals in [00:53:47] Our Backyards, How [00:53:48] Government [00:53:49] Secrecy Harms Our [00:53:50] Communities [00:53:51] and Local Heroes [00:53:52] Fighting Back.[00:53:53]

Read it for [00:53:54] the [00:53:55] investigations, but also [00:53:56] read it for the people. [00:53:57] Read it for the [00:53:58] person who noticed [00:53:59] something was wrong. [00:54:00] Read it for the person who [00:54:01] was told to let it [00:54:02] go. [00:54:03] Read it for the person who [00:54:04] kept searching after [00:54:05] the institutions [00:54:06] around them made [00:54:07] truth difficult [00:54:08] to [00:54:09] reach but here's the [00:54:10] uncomfortable part [00:54:11] people don't wanna talk [00:54:12] about. [00:54:13] The people in power [00:54:14] are not the only [00:54:15] reason important [00:54:16] truths remain hidden. [00:54:17] [00:54:18] Sometimes the truth [00:54:19] stays hidden [00:54:20] because the rest of us [00:54:21] are too busy, [00:54:22] too [00:54:23] distracted, too [00:54:24] discouraged, or too [00:54:25] willing to believe that [00:54:26] someone else will [00:54:27] do the digging.[00:54:28]

So the [00:54:29] question is not [00:54:30] only whether journalists [00:54:31] will continue to search for the [00:54:32] truth. They [00:54:33] will. That's a easy [00:54:34] question to answer. [00:54:35] The [00:54:36] real question is [00:54:37] whether we will [00:54:38] support them [00:54:39] when they [00:54:40] search for the truth, [00:54:41] whether [00:54:42] we will [00:54:43] listen to the people [00:54:44] fighting to be [00:54:45] heard, and [00:54:46] have the courage to [00:54:47] act [00:54:48] once the truth [00:54:49] finally [00:54:50] reaches us.[00:54:51] [00:54:52]

Ladies and [00:54:53] gentlemen, I wanna thank you [00:54:54] for listening. [00:54:55] I wanna [00:54:56] thank you for watching, [00:54:57] and [00:54:58] until next time, [00:54:59] as [00:55:00] always, [00:55:01] [00:55:02] I'll [00:55:03] holla

Woo. [00:55:04] That was a hell of a [00:55:05] show. Thank [00:55:06] you for rocking with [00:55:07] us here on [00:55:08] Unsolicited Perspectives with [00:55:09] Bruce Anthony. Now, [00:55:10] before you go, [00:55:11] don't forget to [00:55:12] follow, [00:55:13] subscribe, [00:55:14] like, comment, [00:55:15] and share our [00:55:16] podcast. Wherever you're [00:55:17] listening or watching [00:55:18] it to it, pass it along [00:55:19] to your friends. If you [00:55:20] enjoy it, that means [00:55:21] the people that you rock, [00:55:22] we'll enjoy it [00:55:23] also.

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[00:56:28] Audi 5,000 [00:56:29] [00:56:30] [00:56:31] [00:56:32] [00:56:33] [00:56:34] Peace.