Strong on the Outside, Falling Apart Inside with Brian Sachetta

Interview with Brian Sachetta
[00:00:00] 
Inside the Silent Battle Between Anxiety and Modern Masculinity 🧠🤐⚔
Bruce Anthony: What if the biggest [00:00:01] battle you're fighting [00:00:02] isn't with the [00:00:03] world, [00:00:04] but with your [00:00:05] own mind? [00:00:06] We gonna get [00:00:07] into it. [00:00:08] Let's get [00:00:09] it 
[00:00:10] [00:00:11] [00:00:12] [00:00:13] [00:00:14] [00:00:15] [00:00:16] [00:00:17] [00:00:18] [00:00:19] [00:00:20] 
Bruce Anthony: Welcome. [00:00:21] First of all, [00:00:22] welcome. This is [00:00:23] Unsolicited Perspectives. [00:00:24] I am your host, [00:00:25] Bruce Anthony, here to [00:00:26] lead the [00:00:27] conversation in important events [00:00:28] and topics [00:00:29] that are shaping today's [00:00:30] society. [00:00:31] Join the [00:00:32] conversation and follow us wherever you [00:00:33] get your audio [00:00:34] podcasts. Subscribe to [00:00:35] our YouTube channel for our [00:00:36] video podcast, [00:00:37] YouTube exclusive [00:00:38] content, and our YouTube [00:00:39] membership.
[00:00:40] Rate, review, [00:00:41] like, [00:00:42] comment, share. [00:00:43] Share with your [00:00:44] friends, share with your [00:00:45] family. Hell, [00:00:46] even share with your [00:00:47] enemies. On [00:00:48] today's [00:00:49] episode, I'm joined by [00:00:50] author, software [00:00:51] developer, and mental health [00:00:52] advocate Brian [00:00:53] Sacchetta. We're [00:00:54] gonna be exploring [00:00:55] anxiety, [00:00:56] masculinity, and why so [00:00:57] many people suffer in [00:00:58] silence. But [00:00:59] that's enough of the intro. [00:01:00] Let's get [00:01:01] to the [00:01:02] show 
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Bruce Anthony: [00:01:03] [00:01:04] [00:01:05] [00:01:06] [00:01:07] [00:01:08] [00:01:09] [00:01:10] Mental health [00:01:11] has become one of the most [00:01:12] talked about topics in our [00:01:13] culture and on [00:01:14] this show, but that [00:01:15] doesn't necessarily [00:01:16] mean that we're having better [00:01:17] conversations [00:01:18] around this particular [00:01:19] subject. Too [00:01:20] often, the advice we [00:01:21] hear is to stay [00:01:22] positive or just think [00:01:23] differently, even though [00:01:24] anybody who has ever lived [00:01:25] with anxiety or [00:01:26] depression knows that [00:01:27] those [00:01:28] words rarely work [00:01:29] by themselves.[00:01:30] 
Today's [00:01:31] guest, Brian Sachetta, [00:01:32] approaches mental [00:01:33] health from a unique [00:01:34] perspective. As a [00:01:35] software developer [00:01:36] and author of Get Out [00:01:37] of Your Head book [00:01:38] series, he [00:01:39] draws interesting [00:01:40] parallels between [00:01:41] how we debug [00:01:42] computer systems [00:01:43] and how we [00:01:44] try to make sense of [00:01:45] our own minds. [00:01:46] Through his [00:01:47] own experiences [00:01:48] with anxiety [00:01:49] and panic attacks [00:01:50] and depression, he's [00:01:51] developed a philosophy that [00:01:52] challenges a lot of [00:01:53] conventional thinking [00:01:54] about mental [00:01:55] health.
In this [00:01:56] conversation, we're gonna talk [00:01:57] about why [00:01:58] high-functioning [00:01:59] people often [00:02:00] struggle in silence, [00:02:01] how technology [00:02:02] can become a tool [00:02:03] for emotional [00:02:04] avoidance, [00:02:05] what masculinity [00:02:06] teaches men about [00:02:07] vulnerability, [00:02:08] and why [00:02:09] understanding your mind [00:02:10] isn't always the [00:02:11] same as escaping [00:02:12] it. If you [00:02:13] ever found yourself [00:02:14] overthinking, [00:02:15] carrying stress [00:02:16] that you never [00:02:17] talk about, or [00:02:18] wondering why so many [00:02:19] people seem to have it [00:02:20] all together while [00:02:21] quietly falling [00:02:22] apart, I'm gonna-- [00:02:23] I think that you're gonna [00:02:24] really enjoy this [00:02:25] conversation.
[00:02:26] So [00:02:27] without further [00:02:28] ado, [00:02:29] Brian [00:02:30] [00:02:31] Sachetta As I said at [00:02:32] the top, I'm here with [00:02:33] Brian Sachetta, [00:02:34] author of Get Out of [00:02:35] Your Head [00:02:36] series. [00:02:37] [00:02:38] Brian, thank [00:02:39] you for coming on the show. [00:02:40] We're gonna talk about something [00:02:41] that's near and dear to my [00:02:42] heart, and that's mental [00:02:43] health, mental health [00:02:44] for men. [00:02:45] Uh, it's, it's [00:02:46] a common [00:02:47] theme on this show. I've [00:02:48] had a lot of mental health [00:02:49] professionals come on [00:02:50] here, mental [00:02:51] health advocates come [00:02:52] on here, talk about [00:02:53] mental health.
[00:02:54] It's near and dear to my [00:02:55] heart, and you have [00:02:56] a different [00:02:57] perspective [00:02:58] on unsolicited [00:02:59] perspectives of, [00:03:00] of looking at [00:03:01] mental health, and I [00:03:02] thought that was [00:03:03] interest- [00:03:04] interesting, so thank you so [00:03:05] much for coming on the [00:03:06] show. I'm excited to have [00:03:07] this conversation[00:03:08] 
Brian Sachetta: Thanks, [00:03:09] Bruce. I'm excited to be here[00:03:10] 
Bruce Anthony: All [00:03:11] right. So I [00:03:12] start [00:03:13] every [00:03:14] interview, Brian, [00:03:15] with a very [00:03:16] simple question, [00:03:17] but it's an [00:03:18] important question. [00:03:19] Take me [00:03:20] 
Growing Up in Boston During the Boys Don't Cry Era of the 90s 🧊🚪🧠
Bruce Anthony: back to [00:03:21] growing up. You're from [00:03:22] Boston. Take, take [00:03:23] me back to what it was like [00:03:24] growing up in Boston, [00:03:25] your early [00:03:26] life, [00:03:27] and [00:03:28] the [00:03:29] signs [00:03:30] of how [00:03:31] men are supposed [00:03:32] to handle their [00:03:33] emotions [00:03:34] growing up in Boston and being a [00:03:35] youth[00:03:36] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah. So [00:03:37] I [00:03:38] think I wanna attack this [00:03:39] at three quick [00:03:40] levels. So we'll [00:03:41] go [00:03:42] [00:03:43] first on [00:03:44] the societal [00:03:45] level.
Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm
Brian Sachetta: You [00:03:46] know, I [00:03:47] grew up in the [00:03:48] '90s, [00:03:49] in the [00:03:50] 2000s, but [00:03:51] formative years, [00:03:52] you know, we'll say [00:03:53] '98 [00:03:54] to 2005, [00:03:55] something like that, you know? [00:03:56] And [00:03:57] in [00:03:58] 1999, whatever year [00:03:59] you wanna pick out [00:04:00] of that [00:04:01] timeline, the world was [00:04:02] pretty different.
You know, [00:04:03] there's no social [00:04:04] media. The internet [00:04:05] wasn't [00:04:06] really a big thing. There's [00:04:07] no influencers [00:04:08] and all that. And so [00:04:09] back [00:04:10] then, the milieu of [00:04:11] [00:04:12] growing up in that [00:04:13] environment, right, of, [00:04:14] [00:04:15] it was [00:04:16] basically [00:04:17] still in [00:04:18] that era of [00:04:19] boys don't [00:04:20] cry, push your [00:04:21] feelings down, [00:04:22] men don't [00:04:23] have [00:04:24] emotions, they don't talk about [00:04:25] these things.
So that [00:04:26] was the, the [00:04:27] society-wide [00:04:28] level, right? [00:04:29] Then I'll move [00:04:30] down to the Boston [00:04:31] level to just [00:04:32] answer this question [00:04:33] specifically is, you [00:04:34] know, people will still [00:04:35] say, uh, and [00:04:36] obviously it's changed a [00:04:37] little bit, but people will [00:04:38] often say that [00:04:39] living in the [00:04:40] Northeast kinda [00:04:41] hardens you because the [00:04:42] winter is really [00:04:43] tough, and there's, [00:04:44] there's a lot of [00:04:45] comedians and [00:04:46] famous people that come out of [00:04:47] the Northeast, and they're-- [00:04:48] they all have [00:04:49] that little bit of [00:04:50] [00:04:51] ruggedness/A-hole vibe [00:04:52] to them, you know?[00:04:53] 
And so with [00:04:54] that is like, oh, you [00:04:55] know, the, [00:04:56] these guys [00:04:57] or men in general [00:04:58] in Boston, we, [00:04:59] we get through the hard [00:05:00] winters. We kinda, [00:05:01] you know, [00:05:02] we have a [00:05:03] little edge to us. [00:05:04] We don't like life [00:05:05] that much kinda thing. We [00:05:06] don't talk about the [00:05:07] difficulties. [00:05:08] Maybe we drink, [00:05:09] maybe we go to the [00:05:10] boys' clubs, [00:05:11] whatever. That was [00:05:12] definitely there as well, [00:05:13] growing up in that [00:05:14] of just [00:05:15] again, like, hey, I'm [00:05:16] hearing these [00:05:17] messages or absorbing these [00:05:18] messages of like, [00:05:19] you know, [00:05:20] struggle on, [00:05:21] get through, but don't [00:05:22] talk about it.
And [00:05:23] then lastly, you know, [00:05:24] growing up in my [00:05:25] own family, [00:05:26] and, you know, this is the [00:05:27] part that, like, I'm still [00:05:28] in therapy. I still [00:05:29] go through this stuff and [00:05:30] work through this stuff, [00:05:31] process it, and [00:05:32] it's challenging too, where [00:05:33] it's like [00:05:34] you know, would everybody [00:05:35] in my family agree [00:05:36] with this? They might not. [00:05:37] But [00:05:38] I think for [00:05:39] my sp- like my [00:05:40] specific immediate [00:05:41] family, grew [00:05:42] up in a place [00:05:43] where, you know, we didn't [00:05:44] talk about emotions [00:05:45] a lot, and we also [00:05:46] didn't have, like, [00:05:47] too many difficult [00:05:48] conversations.[00:05:49] 
So as a [00:05:50] kid, right, like, [00:05:51] yeah, you, you [00:05:52] observe your parents' [00:05:53] behavior, and you [00:05:54] also hear what they [00:05:55] say, but [00:05:56] you absorb [00:05:57] everything that they do [00:05:58] and don't do [00:05:59] as well. [00:06:00] And with a lot of that is [00:06:01] like, I don't [00:06:02] say the word subliminal [00:06:03] in a bad way. I just [00:06:04] mean there's, there's [00:06:05] an [00:06:06] undertone there, right, that [00:06:07] you pick up on.
And [00:06:08] so for me, I think that [00:06:09] undertone was, [00:06:10] oh, we don't [00:06:11] really express our [00:06:12] emotions that [00:06:13] effectively or at [00:06:14] all, and [00:06:15] therefore, [00:06:16] I take that to [00:06:17] mean that I can't [00:06:18] express my emotions [00:06:19] either. And I think all [00:06:20] of those things came [00:06:21] together to [00:06:22] create a product where it's [00:06:23] like, ooh, [00:06:24] that's not a great [00:06:25] environment for mental health.[00:06:26] 
Why Anger Became the Only Emotion Men Were Ever Allowed to Show 😡🧱🤫
Bruce Anthony: So [00:06:27] when [00:06:28] you say don't [00:06:29] show [00:06:30] emotions or don't show [00:06:31] emotions, [00:06:32] mm, [00:06:33] properly, [00:06:34] w- [00:06:35] what specifically [00:06:36] are you talking about? S- [00:06:37] so [00:06:38] for instance, [00:06:39] I grew up in the [00:06:40] '90s as well. By [00:06:41] the time I was in the [00:06:42] 2000s, I was in college. That [00:06:43] was a, that was a different [00:06:44] time for me. [00:06:45] But in [00:06:46] the '90s I did [00:06:47] grow up, and [00:06:48] I remember [00:06:49] the [00:06:50] music I listened to, [00:06:51] hip hop, right?[00:06:52] 
W- Switched [00:06:53] over from what I [00:06:54] call happy rap [00:06:55] into hardcore rap, [00:06:56] where [00:06:57] before we were [00:06:58] dancing at the beginning of the [00:06:59] generation, and then we [00:07:00] couldn't even dance [00:07:01] anymore, right? [00:07:02] So [00:07:03] the expression [00:07:04] of joy [00:07:05] was [00:07:06] just [00:07:07] different. The [00:07:08] only thing we could really [00:07:09] express was [00:07:10] [00:07:11] anger [00:07:12] In [00:07:13] your [00:07:14] growing up, [00:07:15] what were [00:07:16] some of the [00:07:17] emotions [00:07:18] that, that you [00:07:19] looked at and say, "Well, [00:07:20] these are [00:07:21] emotions that are [00:07:22] deemed worthy [00:07:23] for me to [00:07:24] express?"
Brian Sachetta: [00:07:25] Yeah, it's a really good [00:07:26] question. [00:07:27] What I would say [00:07:28] is, I think the [00:07:29] positive emotions [00:07:30] were all well and [00:07:31] good, and I think [00:07:32] that there was [00:07:33] an air [00:07:34] of [00:07:35] sort of like the positive [00:07:36] thinking movement, [00:07:37] the new self, [00:07:38] the new thought [00:07:39] kind of movement of [00:07:40] law of [00:07:41] attraction, think [00:07:42] positive, celebrate your [00:07:43] wins and all that.
And [00:07:44] it's-- look, that's [00:07:45] great. I think you [00:07:46] need a healthy [00:07:47] balance of that kind of [00:07:48] thing in your life. [00:07:49] I know that in [00:07:50] my own home life, [00:07:51] like we really [00:07:52] struggled to go [00:07:53] to the other [00:07:54] end and talk about the [00:07:55] negative emotions, [00:07:56] right? So just as [00:07:57] a like one-off [00:07:58] example, right, is [00:07:59] like my brother would [00:08:00] come home from [00:08:01] school or, or maybe he did [00:08:02] one day [00:08:03] and something didn't go [00:08:04] right.
You know, maybe he [00:08:05] was-- he asked a [00:08:06] girl out and he [00:08:07] got rejected, [00:08:08] or the girl that he [00:08:09] liked went off [00:08:10] with somebody else or [00:08:11] whatever, and he'd [00:08:12] come home and he'd be [00:08:13] like venting [00:08:14] and fuming and maybe [00:08:15] slam a door or [00:08:16] whatever. And [00:08:17] instead of being like, [00:08:18] "Oh, he's [00:08:19] communicating [00:08:20] something through [00:08:21] that behavior, [00:08:22] let's [00:08:23] talk about it," [00:08:24] I remember me and my [00:08:25] dad, we'd just sit around and we'd [00:08:26] be like, "We don't [00:08:27] know, [00:08:28] you know, we don't know what's [00:08:29] going on and we don't know [00:08:30] what, what to do [00:08:31] about it.
We don't know how to [00:08:32] handle it." So we just [00:08:33] didn't, we didn't [00:08:34] really have [00:08:35] the language [00:08:36] and the textbook [00:08:37] or the tool book [00:08:38] for making sense [00:08:39] of those emotions. And [00:08:40] even if we were like, [00:08:41] "Yeah, we would be [00:08:42] willing to talk about [00:08:43] them," the [00:08:44] environment didn't [00:08:45] quite support it, right? [00:08:46] Again, I just don't know if we [00:08:47] had all the tools [00:08:48] for it.
So [00:08:49] I think for [00:08:50] me, I'm like looking back, [00:08:51] I'm like, yeah, we made room [00:08:52] for the positive. [00:08:53] We d- we [00:08:54] either didn't make [00:08:55] room for the negative [00:08:56] or we didn't want [00:08:57] to or we didn't know how [00:08:58] to handle it. [00:08:59] And when you [00:09:00] kinda don't actually [00:09:01] talk about those [00:09:02] things, then [00:09:03] problems start [00:09:04] to arise over [00:09:05] time.
Bruce Anthony: [00:09:06] Yeah. I, I [00:09:07] often [00:09:08] talk about [00:09:09] this [00:09:10] when [00:09:11] discussing relationships [00:09:12] between parents [00:09:13] and their [00:09:14] children. And [00:09:15] I'm not a parent, [00:09:16] but I am somebody's [00:09:17] child, so I [00:09:18] do have a right to say [00:09:19] what I'm about to [00:09:20] say. And [00:09:21] I think [00:09:22] oftentimes parents don't think [00:09:23] about giving [00:09:24] their kids safe [00:09:25] spaces. [00:09:26] [00:09:27] My [00:09:28] question to you [00:09:29] is, [00:09:30] even [00:09:31] if the space [00:09:32] was safe for your [00:09:33] brother, for instance, [00:09:34] in, in, in [00:09:35] that particular [00:09:36] situation, [00:09:37] would he [00:09:38] even know [00:09:39] how to [00:09:40] verbalize [00:09:41] what it is going- would [00:09:42] he feel comfortable?
[00:09:43] Would he know how to [00:09:44] verbalize it, and would [00:09:45] he feel [00:09:46] comfortable [00:09:47] sharing that type of [00:09:48] vulnerability [00:09:49] that a girl [00:09:50] rejected me, [00:09:51] or I didn't [00:09:52] make the, the [00:09:53] basketball [00:09:54] team, or [00:09:55] coach decided to [00:09:56] bench me, uh, and [00:09:57] I'm not gonna be pitching [00:09:58] the next game? Would [00:09:59] he know [00:10:00] or you know [00:10:01] how to express [00:10:02] that if you [00:10:03] were given the safe [00:10:04] spaces to [00:10:05] express it?[00:10:06] 
Brian Sachetta: I got [00:10:07] two things [00:10:08] I wanna mention on that [00:10:09] is one, [00:10:10] [00:10:11] when we [00:10:12] say safe space, right? [00:10:13] I think the challenge [00:10:14] that we faced [00:10:15] growing up was like, I [00:10:16] think my parents would probably [00:10:17] be like, [00:10:18] "What do you mean we [00:10:19] didn't give you that space," [00:10:20] right? "We absolutely did. [00:10:21] You know you could've come and [00:10:22] talked to us about [00:10:23] anything."
I would say [00:10:24] they didn't [00:10:25] provide [00:10:26] always [00:10:27] the model, [00:10:28] like the, that, [00:10:29] that role of [00:10:30] modeling that [00:10:31] behavior, if that [00:10:32] makes sense, right? [00:10:33] And then [00:10:34] that means that, [00:10:35] let's say my [00:10:36] brother and I [00:10:37] probably don't [00:10:38] get the [00:10:39] tools to [00:10:40] be able to talk [00:10:41] about those things [00:10:42] if the space were [00:10:43] there. Does that make[00:10:44] 
Bruce Anthony: Yeah. 
Success on Paper Can Still Hide a Mind Quietly Falling Apart 🎓💼😰
Bruce Anthony: Yeah, [00:10:45] that makes perfect [00:10:46] sense. [00:10:47] Well, [00:10:48] despite m- [00:10:49] maybe not [00:10:50] [00:10:51] having the [00:10:52] [00:10:53] perfectly [00:10:54] described safe [00:10:55] space or, or the [00:10:56] tools to, [00:10:57] uh, [00:10:58] express yourself [00:10:59] emotionally, on paper, [00:11:00] you made it, [00:11:01] right? You went to [00:11:02] Boston College, [00:11:03] software [00:11:04] career, you got a good [00:11:05] job. [00:11:06] When [00:11:07] did you start to [00:11:08] realize that [00:11:09] even [00:11:10] with [00:11:11] the [00:11:12] successes that you had in your [00:11:13] life, there was still [00:11:14] something underneath that [00:11:15] wasn't quite right?[00:11:16] [00:11:17] 
Brian Sachetta: It's funny [00:11:18] 'cause, you know, I think we [00:11:19] wanna look at [00:11:20] these stories, [00:11:21] anybody's story, and [00:11:22] especially, like, somebody [00:11:23] who is on a [00:11:24] podcast, writes a book, [00:11:25] whatever, right? [00:11:26] We, we try [00:11:27] to, like, make our [00:11:28] narratives and [00:11:29] lives and [00:11:30] stories clean and [00:11:31] sexy and easy and all [00:11:32] that. In [00:11:33] reality, you know, I think [00:11:34] everybody [00:11:35] struggles at [00:11:36] times, if not [00:11:37] maybe the whole [00:11:38] time.
You know, it's a, it's a [00:11:39] fairly messy [00:11:40] journey. Now, that's not to [00:11:41] say that there aren't [00:11:42] positive moments, there aren't good [00:11:43] moments. But when I [00:11:44] look back on my own [00:11:45] journey, I'm like, [00:11:46] I know that I [00:11:47] struggled with [00:11:48] my mental health in [00:11:49] high school, but I didn't [00:11:50] have the [00:11:51] lexicon for it. [00:11:52] So I would just be [00:11:53] like, "I was [00:11:54] nervous a lot."
[00:11:55] I, I didn't even [00:11:56] know what the word [00:11:57] anxiety was. You know, it [00:11:58] really-- Again, it [00:11:59] wasn't... [00:12:00] To speak of, [00:12:01] to speak of that [00:12:02] milieu of society, [00:12:03] it wasn't [00:12:04] in [00:12:05] the... [00:12:06] I, I'm, I'm [00:12:07] missing the term, but it just [00:12:08] wasn't in the cultural [00:12:09] societal [00:12:10] dialogue, if you [00:12:11] will, right? 'Cause [00:12:12] that was, when I-- [00:12:13] If I look back [00:12:14] and I'm like, when I started [00:12:15] to struggle with my mental [00:12:16] health, I don't know, [00:12:17] [00:12:18] [00:12:19] 2005, 2006.
Nobody was [00:12:20] really talking about [00:12:21] anxiety, especially not in [00:12:22] high school at [00:12:23] that point, you know? [00:12:24] So I would say [00:12:25] there was a moment [00:12:26] there, but then [00:12:27] a real [00:12:28] inciting moment was 
The Panic Attack That Forced Brian to Finally Face His Anxiety 💔😨🪱
Brian Sachetta: I [00:12:29] went off to [00:12:30] college [00:12:31] and I, you know, [00:12:32] I had actually just [00:12:33] had a panic attack a [00:12:34] few months before [00:12:35] that while I was on a [00:12:36] date with a girl, and [00:12:37] this, you know, I talk about this in [00:12:38] my first book.
[00:12:39] And I go off to college [00:12:40] and I'm like, [00:12:41] I don't even know what that [00:12:42] was. I didn't [00:12:43] really know the term [00:12:44] panic attack. I just knew [00:12:45] I was so [00:12:46] nervous, more nervous than I [00:12:47] had ever been [00:12:48] before, and I couldn't [00:12:49] breathe and, you [00:12:50] know, felt like I was gonna have a [00:12:51] heart attack, [00:12:52] XYZ. [00:12:53] I go off to college, [00:12:54] and being the [00:12:55] 18-year-old [00:12:56] guy that's [00:12:57] living in this [00:12:58] machismo world, I'm [00:12:59] like, you know, turn [00:13:00] the page, never [00:13:01] gonna experience that [00:13:02] again.
[00:13:03] I don't have to think about it. [00:13:04] Push it down. [00:13:05] I'm just gonna live a [00:13:06] great life in [00:13:07] college, and everything's gonna be [00:13:08] fine and dandy and [00:13:09] fun. And [00:13:10] very quickly [00:13:11] at college, you know, [00:13:12] I, I meet this new girl [00:13:13] that I'm interested in. [00:13:14] I could give you the whole [00:13:15] story, but, [00:13:16] you know, there w- we, [00:13:17] we, we met up one [00:13:18] night and she had been [00:13:19] drinking a little bit and I had [00:13:20] not.
I was very [00:13:21] nervous, [00:13:22] and she's just, like, [00:13:23] kinda not in her right [00:13:24] mind where she's [00:13:25] critical, you [00:13:26] know? I guess I would say that. [00:13:27] She's [00:13:28] unfiltered And so [00:13:29] she comes over, [00:13:30] jumps into my [00:13:31] lap, and I'm, [00:13:32] I'm shaking, my heart is [00:13:33] racing, and she [00:13:34] just freaks out. [00:13:35] She's like, [00:13:36] "Oh my God, what's wrong [00:13:37] with you? You're shaking.
[00:13:38] This is so strange." And [00:13:39] like, you know, s- [00:13:40] swears at me a bunch and runs [00:13:41] off down the hall. [00:13:42] And [00:13:43] that was [00:13:44] really, if, you [00:13:45] know, to answer the question [00:13:46] of when did I know [00:13:47] something wasn't right, [00:13:48] that was like, I can't [00:13:49] ignore any of this [00:13:50] anymore. I can't [00:13:51] pretend as though I [00:13:52] can go off to college and [00:13:53] be fine. [00:13:54] I just tried to [00:13:55] meet up with somebody [00:13:56] that I have a crush on, [00:13:57] and it [00:13:58] went so [00:13:59] horrifically bad, and now [00:14:00] I'm humiliated [00:14:01] and embarrassed and all [00:14:02] of that.
And [00:14:03] so I talk about that in my [00:14:04] first book to be like, [00:14:05] that was [00:14:06] really the beginning, the [00:14:07] official beginning [00:14:08] of my journey, 'cause that was [00:14:09] when I said to [00:14:10] myself, "I gotta [00:14:11] do something about this. I [00:14:12] can't just [00:14:13] pretend like it doesn't [00:14:14] exist. I can't just sweep [00:14:15] it under the rug [00:14:16] anymore."
Bruce Anthony: Yeah, [00:14:17] that's so interesting, uh, 'cause [00:14:18] we're a [00:14:19] few, [00:14:20] few years [00:14:21] apart in- as [00:14:22] far as our [00:14:23] generations are concerned and, [00:14:24] and where we were [00:14:25] as- when we went to college [00:14:26] and high school. [00:14:27] But [00:14:28] I [00:14:29] remember, you know, I often [00:14:30] talk about this [00:14:31] in therapy and in- [00:14:32] with my parents [00:14:33] because they didn't [00:14:34] realize what I was going [00:14:35] through, that, uh...[00:14:36] 
And it took my [00:14:37] ex-wife to point [00:14:38] out, "You're nervous [00:14:39] right now. What is that?" [00:14:40] And I was like, "I, I don't know what you're [00:14:41] talking about. Like, [00:14:42] what are you, what are you [00:14:43] talking about?" She's like, [00:14:44] "I can tell that you're [00:14:45] anxious right now." "I'm [00:14:46] anxious?" She was like, "Yes, [00:14:47] you had this little tic where [00:14:48] you raise your shirt [00:14:49] above your nose.[00:14:50] 
You're [00:14:51] anxious." And it was her [00:14:52] that, that told [00:14:53] me, "You have [00:14:54] this problem." It was [00:14:55] also [00:14:56] The [00:14:57] Sopranos. [00:14:58] It's... I [00:14:59] found out what [00:15:00] panic attacks were, [00:15:01] what I was [00:15:02] having, by [00:15:03] watching The [00:15:04] Sopranos because [00:15:05] they said, "Oh, [00:15:06] this is a panic attack." [00:15:07] Oh, you mean the [00:15:08] situation where all of a [00:15:09] sudden things [00:15:10] get blurry and you look [00:15:11] like you're gonna pass [00:15:12] out?
That's a panic [00:15:13] attack? Oh yeah, I've, [00:15:14] I've had those ever [00:15:15] since probably [00:15:16] middle school. That's, [00:15:17] that's what I have? [00:15:18] And so it [00:15:19] was, it, it... [00:15:20] You're right. It [00:15:21] wasn't in [00:15:22] the lexicon. [00:15:23] It wasn't in our [00:15:24] dialogue to [00:15:25] talk about [00:15:26] anxiety and panic [00:15:27] attacks. But when [00:15:28] you start having [00:15:29] them, [00:15:30] you [00:15:31] realize, [00:15:32] "Oh, yeah, this is [00:15:33] something that I can't [00:15:34] just will [00:15:35] my way out of.
[00:15:36] I've gotta find out [00:15:37] what's going on." [00:15:38] So [00:15:39] my [00:15:40] question is, [00:15:41] [00:15:42] when that young [00:15:43] lady ran off, [00:15:44] what, what [00:15:45] eventually ended up [00:15:46] happening? Did, did [00:15:47] you guys [00:15:48] reconnect, or [00:15:49] was that just a, a [00:15:50] failed thing? [00:15:51] And did that make you [00:15:52] go, [00:15:53] "Well, let's go to [00:15:54] therapy now," or did, [00:15:55] or was there some time [00:15:56] that still passed [00:15:57] before you started [00:15:58] therapy?[00:15:59] 
Brian Sachetta: Okay, 
Why Healing Anxiety Took a Decade Instead of One Breakthrough ⏳🧠🌱
Brian Sachetta: so [00:16:00] I wanna try to keep [00:16:01] two things in my [00:16:02] mind, which is like [00:16:03] what was the [00:16:04] immediate result [00:16:05] or, you know, what happened [00:16:06] with the relationship and [00:16:07] what happened with my mental [00:16:08] health, right? So [00:16:09] and it's [00:16:10] funny 'cause they're-- [00:16:11] the [00:16:12] timelines are [00:16:13] the opposite of one another. [00:16:14] So anyway, [00:16:15] I woke up the next [00:16:16] day and I was [00:16:17] completely [00:16:18] beside myself.
I really [00:16:19] didn't sleep a lot that [00:16:20] night. I'm thinking to myself, [00:16:21] "How am I supposed to [00:16:22] get into a [00:16:23] relationship ever?" You know, [00:16:24] this is, you know, [00:16:25] two women in a [00:16:26] row that [00:16:27] I've had panic attacks [00:16:28] in front of, and my [00:16:29] anxiety is [00:16:30] always there. I'm always [00:16:31] nervous, even if I [00:16:32] don't have a panic attack. [00:16:33] So like, this is bad, I [00:16:34] gotta do something about [00:16:35] it.
So I woke up [00:16:36] that next day and I, [00:16:37] [00:16:38] I went on the internet. [00:16:39] Again, internet was [00:16:40] a very different place back [00:16:41] then. This is [00:16:42] 2008. I'm [00:16:43] buying like [00:16:44] these horrible [00:16:45] eBooks [00:16:46] on sketchy [00:16:47] personal websites [00:16:48] through PayPal and [00:16:49] whatnot,
trying to [00:16:50] figure it all out and [00:16:51] being like, "This [00:16:52] person, he has the [00:16:53] answer. He knows," [00:16:54] right?
And [00:16:55] none of that was helpful. [00:16:56] So the, the [00:16:57] real [00:16:58] story there is like, it, [00:16:59] it was really like the [00:17:00] next decade of just [00:17:01] jumping into [00:17:02] everything I could,
[00:17:03] right? [00:17:04] Exercise, [00:17:05] meditation, breathwork, [00:17:06] mantras, [00:17:07] going to [00:17:08] therapy, you name it. I [00:17:09] tried it all. [00:17:10] And eventually, [00:17:11] right, like I wanted [00:17:12] that progress [00:17:13] immediately [00:17:14] and the bitter [00:17:15] pill or whatever the right [00:17:16] term is like, [00:17:17] I [00:17:18] got there, but [00:17:19] it took me a decade.[00:17:20] 
And, and [00:17:21] I, and [00:17:22] part of [00:17:23] getting there is [00:17:24] also acknowledging that [00:17:25] like you're [00:17:26] never there. [00:17:27] You know what I mean? You [00:17:28] do better with it, [00:17:29] and you [00:17:30] see the anxiety [00:17:31] differently and you have a different [00:17:32] relationship to [00:17:33] it. But the [00:17:34] notion of like, I [00:17:35] never [00:17:36] experience anxiety ever [00:17:37] again, uh, guess [00:17:38] what? The only people [00:17:39] who don't are, [00:17:40] you know, [00:17:41] folks who aren't [00:17:42] connected to their feelings [00:17:43] at all or dead people.[00:17:44] 
You know what I mean? So, [00:17:45] right, you [00:17:46] change, you [00:17:47] change your relationship [00:17:48] to it and you learn things [00:17:49] and you integrate over [00:17:50] time and you do get [00:17:51] better. The [00:17:52] second part is [00:17:53] more what happened with [00:17:54] that woman. Now [00:17:55] this is something that [00:17:56] honestly [00:17:57] like at some point I [00:17:58] should do some [00:17:59] therapy on this. [00:18:00] Uh, she and I [00:18:01] remained friends.
We stayed [00:18:02] connected. [00:18:03] Uh, [00:18:04] I don't know how [00:18:05] much of the dirty a- [00:18:06] laundry I wanna air [00:18:07] out, but like[00:18:08] 
we hooked up a [00:18:09] few times. [00:18:10] She, [00:18:11] she-- [00:18:12] I'll just say I think she [00:18:13] probably needed [00:18:14] therapy more than I [00:18:15] did, and we'll see. [00:18:16] Who knows? I [00:18:17] don't know what ended up [00:18:18] happening, but I [00:18:19] look back and I'm just like, [00:18:20] that was a very [00:18:21] dysfunctional [00:18:22] relationship [00:18:23] fueled by [00:18:24] a lot of drinking, [00:18:25] and it wasn't [00:18:26] healthy at all.
And I'm like, [00:18:27] that [00:18:28] obviously didn't help [00:18:29] my mental health [00:18:30] for that to be one of [00:18:31] my first [00:18:32] like, not my first [00:18:33] relationship and it [00:18:34] wasn't even [00:18:35] officially a relationship, [00:18:36] but like [00:18:37] it, again, it was, [00:18:38] it was not healthy. [00:18:39] It was [00:18:40] booty calls, like [00:18:41] just awkward [00:18:42] stuff where it was like [00:18:43] one of those things too where [00:18:44] you're like, "Oh, [00:18:45] we hung out last night," [00:18:46] and then wake up the next [00:18:47] morning and like pretend, [00:18:48] you know, as though you [00:18:49] don't even know who each other [00:18:50] is, right?
"Oh, I'm sober [00:18:51] now. I can't talk to you," kind [00:18:52] of thing, so.
Bruce Anthony: The [00:18:53] young kids today would [00:18:54] call that a [00:18:55] situationship.
Brian Sachetta: [00:18:56] There you [00:18:57] go 
Why Human Emotions Cannot Be Debugged Like Broken Computer Code 💻🧩😵
[00:18:58] 
Bruce Anthony: Okay. [00:18:59] So you're, [00:19:00] you're going through this [00:19:01] process [00:19:02] trying to [00:19:03] work [00:19:04] on [00:19:05] your anxiety, [00:19:06] [00:19:07] but you're also a [00:19:08] software [00:19:09] developer, [00:19:10] and you tried to fix your [00:19:11] mind like it was [00:19:12] broken code. [00:19:13] How long did [00:19:14] that work [00:19:15] before you [00:19:16] realized that [00:19:17] the emotions don't [00:19:18] really work that way?[00:19:19] [00:19:20] 
Brian Sachetta: It wasn't too [00:19:21] long, and, [00:19:22] you know, well, [00:19:23] here's the frame, [00:19:24] right, is [00:19:25] so to continue the [00:19:26] story that I just told [00:19:27] was I woke up [00:19:28] that day [00:19:29] after the panic attack. [00:19:30] I'm beside myself. [00:19:31] I read a bunch [00:19:32] of crappy [00:19:33] e-books, but one of [00:19:34] them said, "Hey, [00:19:35] what if [00:19:36] you were [00:19:37] to use [00:19:38] positive [00:19:39] visualization [00:19:40] to, you know, [00:19:41] [00:19:42] mitigate your anxiety?[00:19:43] 
So the next time that [00:19:44] you're thinking of meeting [00:19:45] up with that girl [00:19:46] and you're like a [00:19:47] train wreck, [00:19:48] picture yourself [00:19:49] with her, picture [00:19:50] yourself [00:19:51] succeeding and not [00:19:52] being anxious and all of [00:19:53] that." And it [00:19:54] sounded intriguing to [00:19:55] me 'cause again, I came [00:19:56] from the household [00:19:57] that was, you [00:19:58] know, the [00:19:59] New Thought [00:20:00] school, uh, [00:20:01] law of attraction, [00:20:02] positive thinking, and [00:20:03] all of that.
So I'm like, "That must [00:20:04] be... That must [00:20:05] work," you know? That-- [00:20:06] It, it seems [00:20:07] like it, it should work, [00:20:08] especially when [00:20:09] you grow up and you [00:20:10] hear from teachers and [00:20:11] coaches and parents and [00:20:12] all that, like, [00:20:13] you know, [00:20:14] "See, see the [00:20:15] outcome in your mind, and [00:20:16] then eventually it'll [00:20:17] come to fruition in real [00:20:18] life." So I was like, [00:20:19] there was just [00:20:20] some, some [00:20:21] momentum behind that where I was [00:20:22] like, "Yeah, that seems [00:20:23] approachable.
Let me [00:20:24] try that." So I [00:20:25] really tried [00:20:26] that strategy for, [00:20:27] like, [00:20:28] five to 10 years, [00:20:29] [00:20:30] and I was just [00:20:31] like, I wouldn't let it [00:20:32] go 'cause I'm like, "These [00:20:33] people must... You know, [00:20:34] that author must know what [00:20:35] he's talking about. These [00:20:36] people who sell all these [00:20:37] books, they must know what they're [00:20:38] talking about." [00:20:39] [00:20:40] Eventually, I realized [00:20:41] that I was just [00:20:42] banging my head [00:20:43] against the wall with [00:20:44] that one for so long [00:20:45] of like, [00:20:46] you know, I, [00:20:47] I think we're all familiar with [00:20:48] the definition of [00:20:49] insanity, which is, you know, [00:20:50] doing the same thing [00:20:51] over and over and [00:20:52] expecting a different result.[00:20:53] 
I was [00:20:54] an insane person [00:20:55] doing the same thing [00:20:56] with the law of attraction, [00:20:57] being like, my [00:20:58] anxiety is, is [00:20:59] no better. [00:21:00] Actually, it's kinda [00:21:01] worse 'cause every time [00:21:02] I go down that [00:21:03] spiral, you know, [00:21:04] I'm thinking about the [00:21:05] thing that scares me, [00:21:06] and then I'm feeling [00:21:07] that fear. So [00:21:08] the reason I'm [00:21:09] giving this preamble [00:21:10] is to say that [00:21:11] [00:21:12] That, [00:21:13] that lesson [00:21:14] stuck with me, right?
To [00:21:15] say, "Hey, [00:21:16] you tried that for [00:21:17] five to 10 years. [00:21:18] Maybe the [00:21:19] next time you learn a [00:21:20] tactic, don't [00:21:21] stick [00:21:22] with it for five to 10 [00:21:23] years. Fail with it and [00:21:24] move on," right? [00:21:25] So at a certain [00:21:26] point, you know, I graduated [00:21:27] college, I became a [00:21:28] software developer, [00:21:29] and yeah, [00:21:30] I definitely [00:21:31] took the idea [00:21:32] seriously of [00:21:33] being like, "Well, [00:21:34] I go off to work [00:21:35] every day, and I [00:21:36] think critically, and [00:21:37] I, I solve [00:21:38] coding [00:21:39] problems, so [00:21:40] assuredly I can do the [00:21:41] same thing [00:21:42] in my personal [00:21:43] life and [00:21:44] think critically, [00:21:45] uh, through my [00:21:46] emotions and solve [00:21:47] them."
And [00:21:48] very quickly, [00:21:49] you know... And, and I guess I [00:21:50] would say is, like, I [00:21:51] probably stuck with that [00:21:52] strategy for, like, six [00:21:53] months to a year.[00:21:54] 
Um, but I would [00:21:55] say that was quick based [00:21:56] on the previous [00:21:57] experience, and [00:21:58] after that amount of [00:21:59] time, I was like, [00:22:00] "Okay, I'm kinda [00:22:01] doing the same thing." [00:22:02] You know, I'm basically in [00:22:03] both, [00:22:04] in both cases with [00:22:05] both tactics, I'm [00:22:06] basically just [00:22:07] ruminating over the problem.[00:22:08] 
And, you know, the [00:22:09] more that you stew on the [00:22:10] problem, the larger it gets. [00:22:11] So I [00:22:12] had that evidence [00:22:13] and that experience to [00:22:14] be like, " Hey, [00:22:15] maybe don't try a [00:22:16] tactic ad [00:22:17] nauseam. [00:22:18] Maybe if it's not [00:22:19] working, let it go." [00:22:20] So yeah, I would [00:22:21] say six to [00:22:22] 12 months is kind of [00:22:23] the official answer [00:22:24] to the question that you [00:22:25] asked.
I [00:22:26] eventually had to admit [00:22:27] the fact that [00:22:28] it wasn't [00:22:29] working 
​
Bruce Anthony: [00:22:30] [00:22:31] [00:22:32] [00:22:33] [00:22:34] [00:22:35] [00:22:36] [00:22:37] [00:22:38] When did you get [00:22:39] to the point [00:22:40] where... 'Cause [00:22:41] you say it in your [00:22:42] books that, uh, [00:22:43] our minds are [00:22:44] not our friends and [00:22:45] you can't solve a [00:22:46] feeling. So it [00:22:47] seemed to [00:22:48] me that even though it [00:22:49] only lasted six to [00:22:50] 12 months by, [00:22:51] by using [00:22:52] logic, [00:22:53] logic and [00:22:54] emotions typically don't [00:22:55] go hand in [00:22:56] hand. They're, [00:22:57] they're, they're almost [00:22:58] opposites.[00:22:59] 
When did [00:23:00] you, when did you [00:23:01] start to [00:23:02] realize this, that, [00:23:03] that our minds [00:23:04] aren't our friends and you [00:23:05] can't solve a [00:23:06] feeling?
Brian Sachetta: [00:23:07] I think it's around [00:23:08] this same [00:23:09] time that I'm alluding [00:23:10] to. So this would've been like [00:23:11] [00:23:12] 2015, as I'm at [00:23:13] a specific [00:23:14] job writing [00:23:15] software. And a [00:23:16] lot of this, [00:23:17] you know, maybe [00:23:18] indirectly, but at the [00:23:19] same time is [00:23:20] still [00:23:21] chronicled in my first book. [00:23:22] And so, [00:23:23] uh, I guess surprise, [00:23:24] surprise, the f- uh, [00:23:25] the, the, the first book is [00:23:26] full of stories [00:23:27] of [00:23:28] anxiety and failed [00:23:29] relationships.
[00:23:30] And so [00:23:31] basically like [00:23:32] the long, [00:23:33] long story short on, on [00:23:34] this next [00:23:35] saga, [00:23:36] if you will, was [00:23:37] basically I'm at this 
How a Three Month Europe Trip Exposed His Relationship Anxiety 🌍💔😰
Brian Sachetta: job, [00:23:38] I meet a new [00:23:39] girl, very [00:23:40] interested in her. [00:23:41] Uh, she goes [00:23:42] off on this [00:23:43] long backpacking trip [00:23:44] through Europe, [00:23:45] and we like kind [00:23:46] of unofficially [00:23:47] said that we would like [00:23:48] keep in touch. You know what I [00:23:49] mean?
Try to [00:23:50] not make it work, but just [00:23:51] like, "Hey, we'll, we'll [00:23:52] keep talking." You know 
Bruce Anthony: [00:23:53] Hold, hold on. Now I got [00:23:54] questions. [00:23:55] Now I got que- [00:23:56] questions, Brian. Now hold [00:23:57] on. Were [00:23:58] y'all, like, [00:23:59] officially together before [00:24:00] she did this back- [00:24:01] backpack trip [00:24:02] throughout Europe?
Brian Sachetta: [00:24:03] Absolutely not
Bruce Anthony: [00:24:04] Okay, so y'all [00:24:05] was just... You was, it was [00:24:06] another [00:24:07] situationship. [00:24:08] Okay. All [00:24:09] right. And how [00:24:10] long had this [00:24:11] situationship [00:24:12] been going on?[00:24:13] 
Brian Sachetta: Not very long, like a [00:24:14] month
Bruce Anthony: [00:24:15] And, and how long [00:24:16] was this backpack trip?[00:24:17] [00:24:18] 
Brian Sachetta: Probably like three [00:24:19] months
Bruce Anthony: Uh, [00:24:20] okay, so the backpack [00:24:21] trip is three [00:24:22] times longer than y'all have been [00:24:23] together, and, and [00:24:24] you've come to this [00:24:25] agreement that you're gonna [00:24:26] keep in [00:24:27] touch. [00:24:28] Okay, [00:24:29] that [00:24:30] alone would [00:24:31] cause me a [00:24:32] lot of [00:24:33] anxiety, especially if [00:24:34] I really like a [00:24:35] person. [00:24:36] W- [00:24:37] I have, [00:24:38] uh, there's this [00:24:39] question that I [00:24:40] have, and I'm trying to think of the [00:24:41] right way to ask it.[00:24:42] 
[00:24:43] You know that you're [00:24:44] battling with this [00:24:45] anxiety, [00:24:46] this [00:24:47] severe [00:24:48] anxiety, but it seems like [00:24:49] you put your- [00:24:50] keep putting yourself in these [00:24:51] anxious type of [00:24:52] situations. [00:24:53] Me, I [00:24:54] would avoid. [00:24:55] I would avoid them. I [00:24:56] would say, "Oh, [00:24:57] I'm starting to get that [00:24:58] feeling. I'm out." [00:24:59] But you're leaning [00:25:00] into them. [00:25:01] [00:25:02] [00:25:03] That's, uh, that's [00:25:04] pretty amazing to me[00:25:05] 
Brian Sachetta: I [00:25:06] appreciate that. I would [00:25:07] definitely say [00:25:08] that, you know, [00:25:09] to what you [00:25:10] said, it was a bad [00:25:11] idea. Looking back, I'm [00:25:12] like, yeah, a [00:25:13] situationship that, [00:25:14] I mean, a month [00:25:15] might even be generous. [00:25:16] You know? It was j- it was [00:25:17] just like [00:25:18] I hadn't really... [00:25:19] You know, I had [00:25:20] dated some people and [00:25:21] gone out with some [00:25:22] people, but I didn't have a [00:25:23] ton of experience, [00:25:24] and I [00:25:25] think also, like, there's [00:25:26] so many patterns that [00:25:27] I hadn't yet [00:25:28] seen in my own [00:25:29] life and [00:25:30] learned in my upbringing [00:25:31] that I had to come to [00:25:32] terms with that, like, [00:25:33] you know, I [00:25:34] was still in that puppy [00:25:35] dog phase of [00:25:36] like, "Oh, somebody [00:25:37] likes me, and I like them [00:25:38] back," and like, "We're gonna make it [00:25:39] work," and whatever, you know, [00:25:40] of [00:25:41] committing way too [00:25:42] f- fast [00:25:43] and way too much way [00:25:44] too soon, you [00:25:45] know?
And [00:25:46] then also, yeah, just the [00:25:47] leaning in part, [00:25:48] like, uh, [00:25:49] I don't know. I, [00:25:50] I [00:25:51] wouldn't necessarily say [00:25:52] that I'm a sicko, but, [00:25:53] like, [00:25:54] there's definitely [00:25:55] times where [00:25:56] I... [00:25:57] There's something [00:25:58] in me that, like, [00:25:59] it's [00:26:00] probably a little [00:26:01] OCD based, which is [00:26:02] like [00:26:03] even if I [00:26:04] know that I don't wanna [00:26:05] do it and I'm like, "Oh, I [00:26:06] should avoid," right?
Like, I [00:26:07] remember before she [00:26:08] left, she, [00:26:09] like, she would [00:26:10] kinda be interested [00:26:11] and then not be interested, and [00:26:12] I'm like, "You know what? I don't [00:26:13] need this." Like, "I'm out." Like, [00:26:14] "This is stupid." [00:26:15] And then she'd come back, and I'm, [00:26:16] "Ah, darn it." Like [00:26:17] but you know what I mean? I, [00:26:18] I know that I should [00:26:19] avoid, but I, I kinda [00:26:20] wanna pursue this, you know [00:26:21] what I mean?
[00:26:22] And, and I'm like that in [00:26:23] many situations where I'm like, [00:26:24] I'm so [00:26:25] nervous in, [00:26:26] in other [00:26:27] situations of my life. I'm [00:26:28] going off to a job [00:26:29] interview, you know, I know that [00:26:30] some people would be [00:26:31] like, "Just [00:26:32] cancel the interview." Like, "This [00:26:33] is crazy." Like, "Why be [00:26:34] so nervous? Why go through [00:26:35] with it? Just avoid it." [00:26:36] There's some [00:26:37] sick part of my [00:26:38] brain that is just like, [00:26:39] "Nope, [00:26:40] battle through it."
I don't [00:26:41] necessarily [00:26:42] recommend that, but, like, [00:26:43] that's how I'm [00:26:44] programmed
Bruce Anthony: I don't-- [00:26:45] I, I wanna [00:26:46] be clear, I'm not [00:26:47] knocking you. [00:26:48] I, I actually [00:26:49] [00:26:50] admire that [00:26:51] because I think it takes [00:26:52] more courage [00:26:53] to [00:26:54] actually [00:26:55] face a [00:26:56] thing that is, [00:26:57] that is [00:26:58] going to-- you know [00:26:59] it's going to be tough, [00:27:00] but still to [00:27:01] persevere. [00:27:02] You said it might be [00:27:03] insanity to keep doing the [00:27:04] same thing over and over [00:27:05] again and [00:27:06] expecting a different result, [00:27:07] but I also [00:27:08] call that living.[00:27:09] 
What [00:27:10] I learned [00:27:11] was that turning and [00:27:12] running away, [00:27:13] avoiding it, was the [00:27:14] worst [00:27:15] scenario to have. [00:27:16] I remember [00:27:17] I moved back to the [00:27:18] same community [00:27:19] that m-me and my [00:27:20] ex-wife moved [00:27:21] in before [00:27:22] we got married. [00:27:23] And my [00:27:24] goddaughter, [00:27:25] uh, said, "Why [00:27:26] did you move back [00:27:27] here after your d- [00:27:28] so soon after your [00:27:29] divorce?" And, [00:27:30] and without thinking, [00:27:31] uh, I didn't even [00:27:32] think I was dropping [00:27:33] any type of [00:27:34] knowledge, but for this [00:27:35] young person who was [00:27:36] 13 or 14 years [00:27:37] old picked up on [00:27:38] it and was like, "Wow, I [00:27:39] never thought of it like that."
And it [00:27:40] is like you gotta [00:27:41] put yourself in the [00:27:42] fire. [00:27:43] You gotta, to see [00:27:44] who you are on the other [00:27:45] side of it. [00:27:46] So I, I, [00:27:47] I don't [00:27:48] necessarily think that [00:27:49] you [00:27:50] [00:27:51] entering in [00:27:52] these situations [00:27:53] knowing that they're gonna cause [00:27:54] you anxiety [00:27:55] i- is a [00:27:56] bad thing. I [00:27:57] think [00:27:58] turning and running away from [00:27:59] that interview [00:28:00] would be a [00:28:01] bad thing.
[00:28:02] I started these, [00:28:03] these podcasts, and [00:28:04] the first, I don't [00:28:05] know, six, seven [00:28:06] interviews, [00:28:07] overwhelming [00:28:08] anxiety, and it [00:28:09] came out in the [00:28:10] interviews. I'm just [00:28:11] now starting to get [00:28:12] comfortable with it. [00:28:13] But if I [00:28:14] hadn't done that, [00:28:15] w- I wouldn't [00:28:16] be here. [00:28:17] So [00:28:18] I, I don't want [00:28:19] you to think like, "Ah, [00:28:20] I'm just a glutton for [00:28:21] punishment."
No, I think you're [00:28:22] living life. [00:28:23] So I just wanna give you [00:28:24] your flowers [00:28:25] before we move on to the, [00:28:26] to the next [00:28:27] question.
Brian Sachetta: I appreciate [00:28:28] that, and yeah, I, uh, the [00:28:29] only thing I have to [00:28:30] say is pros and [00:28:31] cons, right? Like, I agree [00:28:32] it's, it's [00:28:33] probably-- [00:28:34] It is better to [00:28:35] do the thing, but I [00:28:36] don't, I don't want folks to [00:28:37] be like, [00:28:38] to think [00:28:39] that they always [00:28:40] have to, right? Like, [00:28:41] knowing that [00:28:42] that anxiety can be [00:28:43] painful and whatnot, I'm not, [00:28:44] I'm not trying to [00:28:45] glamorize that.
I'm saying [00:28:46] like, "Hey, if, if [00:28:47] you do it, yeah, you'll, [00:28:48] you'll learn things and it'll [00:28:49] probably be good for you." But [00:28:50] at the same time, like, [00:28:51] there's a reason why [00:28:52] we avoid, right? Is [00:28:53] like, the avoidance [00:28:54] feels pretty good sometimes.[00:28:55] 
Bruce Anthony: Yeah, it 
When Self Optimization Creates More Stress Than Real Success ⚙📈😵
Bruce Anthony: does. [00:28:56] [00:28:57] [00:28:58] How, [00:28:59] how, how is the [00:29:00] comparison [00:29:01] between-- You're a [00:29:02] software developer. [00:29:03] How is the [00:29:04] comparison between [00:29:05] optimizing [00:29:06] ourselves and [00:29:07] optimizing [00:29:08] software similar? [00:29:09] And is there [00:29:10] danger [00:29:11] in, in [00:29:12] thinking that you can [00:29:13] optimize [00:29:14] yourself like you would a [00:29:15] software?[00:29:16] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah. Uh, I [00:29:17] think I've actually [00:29:18] run up against this [00:29:19] one the last couple [00:29:20] years, and kinda [00:29:21] unknowingly, you 
Bruce Anthony: [00:29:22] Okay. [00:29:23] 
Brian Sachetta: I think I will [00:29:24] eventually answer the [00:29:25] question, but I'll just [00:29:26] kinda ramble for a minute, [00:29:27] which is we [00:29:28] live in this world, [00:29:29] tons of [00:29:30] podcasts [00:29:31] tons of movies to [00:29:32] watch, books to read, [00:29:33] things to do, [00:29:34] trips to take, [00:29:35] all that, right?
[00:29:36] And, and we're [00:29:37] bombarded by it on [00:29:38] [00:29:39] Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and whatever, [00:29:40] and [00:29:41] I think [00:29:42] there's part of us, [00:29:43] maybe not everybody, but [00:29:44] there's part of us that, [00:29:45] like, you see [00:29:46] all these things, you hear all [00:29:47] these things, and you wanna [00:29:48] take part in them, [00:29:49] right? And you [00:29:50] also, right, like [00:29:51] thinking about, let's [00:29:52] just say the podcast [00:29:53] angle specifically [00:29:54] is there's [00:29:55] biohacking and there's [00:29:56] Andrew Huberman, and there's [00:29:57] all these [00:29:58] different ways that [00:29:59] we learn, right?[00:30:00] 
Whether it's through a [00:30:01] specific podcast [00:30:02] or just a [00:30:03] general [00:30:04] atmosphere of the [00:30:05] society that we live [00:30:06] in of like, [00:30:07] yeah, [00:30:08] make the best use of [00:30:09] all your [00:30:10] time [00:30:11] and cram [00:30:12] as much into every [00:30:13] day as you can, [00:30:14] and [00:30:15] that, I think, is [00:30:16] driven by the fact that [00:30:17] there's so much [00:30:18] stuff and [00:30:19] information and [00:30:20] content out there [00:30:21] that we're like, "Okay, [00:30:22] [00:30:23] I'm never gonna do it [00:30:24] all, but let me try to [00:30:25] do a good amount of it," [00:30:26] right?
And if I [00:30:27] can [00:30:28] block out my [00:30:29] calendar where every [00:30:30] single second is [00:30:31] accounted for, [00:30:32] then I won't feel [00:30:33] as though I'm missing out [00:30:34] on things, right? [00:30:35] Which is, you [00:30:36] know, as an aside, [00:30:37] that's a, that's a bit of [00:30:38] an illusion because [00:30:39] there's so much stuff we [00:30:40] can't do it all. We can't [00:30:41] experience it all, [00:30:42] obviously, right? [00:30:43] So I [00:30:44] found myself [00:30:45] [00:30:46] trying to [00:30:47] [00:30:48] essentially [00:30:49] Make [00:30:50] everything as [00:30:51] optimized as [00:30:52] could be, right?
[00:30:53] Okay, wake up, pop in [00:30:54] a podcast. Go [00:30:55] for a walk, listen to [00:30:56] an audiobook. [00:30:57] Get to the gym, [00:30:58] listen to a podcast [00:30:59] while I'm working out. [00:31:00] Go to work, [00:31:01] come home from work, [00:31:02] work on my side [00:31:03] project, listen [00:31:04] to a, another [00:31:05] audio, a- [00:31:06] audiobook, do the [00:31:07] biohacking, [00:31:08] XYZ, all of [00:31:09] that, right? And so whether [00:31:10] it's physical, mental, [00:31:11] emotional, [00:31:12] if we cram all [00:31:13] of that stuff into [00:31:14] our days and [00:31:15] we...
Essentially, [00:31:16] as you're doing that, right, [00:31:17] like you're kinda sending [00:31:18] this message to your [00:31:19] brain and to your nervous [00:31:20] system and your body [00:31:21] of high [00:31:22] pressure, to be like, "We [00:31:23] have to do it [00:31:24] all. We have to [00:31:25] cram all of it [00:31:26] in, otherwise [00:31:27] we're gonna miss out." [00:31:28] And with that [00:31:29] pressure comes a lot of [00:31:30] stress, you [00:31:31] know? And if you're [00:31:32] doing that day [00:31:33] after day after [00:31:34] day, all [00:31:35] that stress is gonna [00:31:36] build up in your nervous [00:31:37] system, and at some [00:31:38] point it's going to [00:31:39] boil over.
[00:31:40] And that is [00:31:41] kinda where I found [00:31:42] myself within the last [00:31:43] couple of years, being [00:31:44] like doing [00:31:45] all these things that [00:31:46] don't matter, that I [00:31:47] don't really [00:31:48] care about, and I, and I don't [00:31:49] like... I- that's [00:31:50] not to be meant on a, [00:31:51] some [00:31:52] grand level, right? [00:31:53] Like if I speak [00:31:54] specifically to my own [00:31:55] situation, I was like, [00:31:56] I was basically [00:31:57] addicted to [00:31:58] podcasts, kind of [00:31:59] addicted to audiobooks.
I'd [00:32:00] watch a lot of [00:32:01] movies, and I still [00:32:02] tried to do all the [00:32:03] other things at the [00:32:04] same time: hang out with [00:32:05] my friends, date, [00:32:06] talk to my [00:32:07] family, go to work, [00:32:08] right? Your [00:32:09] body just can't [00:32:10] keep up with [00:32:11] that much stuff [00:32:12] for that long. And the [00:32:13] piece with the [00:32:14] optimization is [00:32:15] I would [00:32:16] find myself, I, [00:32:17] you know, I'm [00:32:18] a bit ashamed to [00:32:19] admit it, but I'm [00:32:20] also happy to admit it at [00:32:21] the same time, is [00:32:22] I would find [00:32:23] myself like brushing my [00:32:24] teeth and I'd be [00:32:25] like, "Oh, where are my [00:32:26] headphones?"
Like, I can't believe that [00:32:27] I didn't just listen to a [00:32:28] podcast while I was [00:32:29] brushing my [00:32:30] teeth 'cause like, uh, [00:32:31] you know, I need to be [00:32:32] efficient with my time. And I'm [00:32:33] like, if [00:32:34] two minutes is [00:32:35] that important to [00:32:36] you, you are [00:32:37] so [00:32:38] fragile.[00:32:39] 
You know? Like you [00:32:40] can't just sit there [00:32:41] and do nothing for [00:32:42] two minutes. I [00:32:43] think that speaks to the [00:32:44] amount of stress and the amount of [00:32:45] pressure that [00:32:46] I was putting on [00:32:47] myself, and sometimes [00:32:48] people put on [00:32:49] themselves as well.
So, [00:32:50] you know, the [00:32:51] thing, right, is like [00:32:52] it's not [00:32:53] necessarily like... And [00:32:54] this is why I [00:32:55] struggled was I, I'm [00:32:56] like, I'm like, "I'm [00:32:57] all stressed out. I have no [00:32:58] idea why." [00:32:59] I'm like, "I'm just trying to [00:33:00] listen to an audiobook [00:33:01] and my, you know, I'm, [00:33:02] I feel like I'm [00:33:03] gonna have a panic attack." [00:33:04] It's just an audiobook. [00:33:05] And as I [00:33:06] worked through this with my [00:33:07] therapist, my therapist was [00:33:08] like, "Yeah, it's [00:33:09] an audiobook.
It's not a [00:33:10] big deal. The deal [00:33:11] is [00:33:12] that you're never [00:33:13] giving your [00:33:14] body a second to just [00:33:15] breathe and [00:33:16] relax, and [00:33:17] it's saying [00:33:18] to you like, [00:33:19] 'Stop. [00:33:20] Slow [00:33:21] down and give me a second [00:33:22] to relax.'" [00:33:23] And so if we're [00:33:24] always optimizing, [00:33:25] that is [00:33:26] possibly the [00:33:27] end result, and it's [00:33:28] not a good [00:33:29] one.
How Anxiety Pushes High Achievers Toward Constant Productivity 🏃🧠🔥
Bruce Anthony: I, [00:33:30] I have a [00:33:31] question. The [00:33:32] chicken or the egg? [00:33:33] 'Cause it seems [00:33:34] like [00:33:35] in, in [00:33:36] your process [00:33:37] of optimizing [00:33:38] yourself, [00:33:39] which [00:33:40] is leading to more [00:33:41] anxiety, [00:33:42] it was the anxiety [00:33:43] pushing you to [00:33:44] optimize yourself. It [00:33:45] was your anxiety [00:33:46] saying you need to [00:33:47] be doing something. [00:33:48] So [00:33:49] it, it, [00:33:50] it, it really [00:33:51] very much is the chicken [00:33:52] and the egg [00:33:53] because y- one thing [00:33:54] is driving [00:33:55] the [00:33:56] other thing, right?
[00:33:57] It's, it's your [00:33:58] anxiety [00:33:59] is driving that [00:34:00] overwhelming [00:34:01] need to fill [00:34:02] every minute of the day, [00:34:03] which is also [00:34:04] driving to more [00:34:05] anxiety, and it's [00:34:06] a, it's a circle. [00:34:07] [00:34:08] And, and, and [00:34:09] it's... I [00:34:10] feel like you gotta be so [00:34:11] grateful that you had your [00:34:12] therapist just to be like, "Yo, [00:34:13] it's not [00:34:14] that big of a deal. [00:34:15] Take a [00:34:16] break.
[00:34:17] Relax." [00:34:18] But that [00:34:19] is [00:34:20] difficult for [00:34:21] high-functioning [00:34:22] individuals [00:34:23] because [00:34:24] [00:34:25] high-functioning [00:34:26] individuals feel like they [00:34:27] need to achieve, that [00:34:28] any wasted [00:34:29] moment [00:34:30] is [00:34:31] not achieving [00:34:32] something that they [00:34:33] could be doing to make [00:34:34] them even more [00:34:35] successful or more [00:34:36] accomplished or, [00:34:37] or more [00:34:38] knowledgeable. [00:34:39] And you talk about [00:34:40] that a lot.
You talk [00:34:41] about high-functioning [00:34:42] people and their [00:34:43] struggle, uh, [00:34:44] their struggle [00:34:45] specifically in their [00:34:46] silence, [00:34:47] [00:34:48] silence. [00:34:49] It kinda [00:34:50] seems like you were [00:34:51] describing [00:34:52] yourself, [00:34:53] but [00:34:54] take it out [00:34:55] of yourself [00:34:56] and, and broaden [00:34:57] that concept a [00:34:58] little bit and, and, [00:34:59] and, and [00:35:00] describe to me who [00:35:01] this [00:35:02] high-functioning person [00:35:03] is, [00:35:04] [00:35:05] what they show [00:35:06] everybody, and then who they [00:35:07] are behind closed [00:35:08] doors
Brian Sachetta: [00:35:09] Yeah, that's a really [00:35:10] good question. [00:35:11] So that [00:35:12] person, and, [00:35:13] you know, [00:35:14] as you alluded to, I'm [00:35:15] speaking from [00:35:16] personal experience, is [00:35:17] [00:35:18] somebody who, like, [00:35:19] you talk to [00:35:20] them, you hang [00:35:21] out with them. [00:35:22] They don't show [00:35:23] too many emotions. They [00:35:24] definitely don't show [00:35:25] negative emotions. [00:35:26] They... You know, [00:35:27] it's possible [00:35:28] that you may be [00:35:29] able to read an [00:35:30] emotion on them [00:35:31] that they are not [00:35:32] either picking up or [00:35:33] they are not [00:35:34] admitting that they are dealing [00:35:35] with, right?[00:35:36] 
And yet [00:35:37] on the inside, [00:35:38] they are [00:35:39] constantly feeling that [00:35:40] pressure. They are [00:35:41] constantly [00:35:42] feeling as though they don't [00:35:43] measure up. They are [00:35:44] constantly feeling as [00:35:45] though [00:35:46] if they don't listen to [00:35:47] a podcast [00:35:48] while they brush their teeth, [00:35:49] you [00:35:50] know, they're gonna drop [00:35:51] a ball and something's [00:35:52] gonna go wrong, and they're [00:35:53] gonna fall behind.[00:35:54] 
And so [00:35:55] yeah, it's, [00:35:56] it's the [00:35:57] outward appearance [00:35:58] of success [00:35:59] and [00:36:00] achievement and [00:36:01] having it all together, [00:36:02] while at the [00:36:03] same time [00:36:04] [00:36:05] really being close to [00:36:06] falling apart on the [00:36:07] inside. [00:36:08] You know, I, uh, [00:36:09] sometimes [00:36:10] spend too much time on [00:36:11] Twitter, and I don't know [00:36:12] if it's the, the [00:36:13] exact meme that I'm [00:36:14] thinking of, but [00:36:15] you'll often see a [00:36:16] meme in the comments [00:36:17] where there's a [00:36:18] guy and you can see that his [00:36:19] face has [00:36:20] one expression on [00:36:21] it, and then he has a [00:36:22] mask over it, right?
[00:36:23] But it's like a paper [00:36:24] mask, so you can [00:36:25] very easily [00:36:26] see the difference between the [00:36:27] face and the mask. And, [00:36:28] and that's really [00:36:29] what the, you know, [00:36:30] depending on what [00:36:31] emotions are being [00:36:32] displayed there, [00:36:33] that's what that [00:36:34] high achiever can [00:36:35] feel like, right? Where you're [00:36:36] like on the [00:36:37] outside, big smile, [00:36:38] success, I'm [00:36:39] doing great, whatever.
[00:36:40] On the [00:36:41] inside, fear, [00:36:42] anxiety, [00:36:43] doubt, uncertainty, [00:36:44] all that stuff[00:36:45] 
Bruce Anthony: So the sad clown.[00:36:46] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, [00:36:47] pretty
Bruce Anthony: Yeah, the 
The Sad Clown Effect Behind Ambition, Burnout, and Overwork 🤡💼😓
Bruce Anthony: sad [00:36:48] clown. [00:36:49] As [00:36:50] I, I [00:36:51] had to learn, [00:36:52] and this is just [00:36:53] recently, and it's [00:36:54] been the last [00:36:55] few years, [00:36:56] that, [00:36:57] uh, I do these side [00:36:58] projects. I have so [00:36:59] many side [00:37:00] gigs, and I get these [00:37:01] ideas in my head, and I'm [00:37:02] like, "Okay, I'm gonna go [00:37:03] for it." And then [00:37:04] I don't [00:37:05] just half-step in [00:37:06] it, I go [00:37:07] full-fledged into these [00:37:08] type of things.[00:37:09] 
And I was getting [00:37:10] burnt out, and I [00:37:11] said, "You know what? [00:37:12] My [00:37:13] Sunday fun days [00:37:14] aren't enough [00:37:15] for me to [00:37:16] recalibrate [00:37:17] myself. I need [00:37:18] to lay [00:37:19] off some of these different [00:37:20] things." And in the [00:37:21] process of doing [00:37:22] that, my [00:37:23] anxiety kind of went up [00:37:24] because it was like, [00:37:25] oh man, this is time [00:37:26] where you could be [00:37:27] editing or you could [00:37:28] be getting new [00:37:29] clients or you could [00:37:30] be, uh, [00:37:31] writing new [00:37:32] ads.
It's, it's, it was [00:37:33] something. [00:37:34] [00:37:35] Aside from your [00:37:36] therapist, [00:37:37] uh, saying it's not [00:37:38] that big of a [00:37:39] deal, what [00:37:40] were some other [00:37:41] things that's [00:37:42] registered that you [00:37:43] said, "Okay, I [00:37:44] do need to relax," [00:37:45] and is it something [00:37:46] that you still [00:37:47] constantly deal with?[00:37:48] [00:37:49] 
Brian Sachetta: [00:37:50] I would say I'm [00:37:51] in the middle of [00:37:52] it, but, but [00:37:53] [00:37:54] seeing the light at the end [00:37:55] of the tunnel.
Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm.[00:37:56] 
Brian Sachetta: And [00:37:57] [00:37:58] I think... [00:37:59] I [00:38:00] mean, it took a lot, right? [00:38:01] And, and I don't-- I, [00:38:02] I, I always, [00:38:03] I always want [00:38:04] to [00:38:05] really get the message [00:38:06] across that like I, I [00:38:07] don't come on shows like these [00:38:08] to be like, [00:38:09] "Hey, I figured it all [00:38:10] out and I'm [00:38:11] perfect," whatever, right?
Like [00:38:12] I'm a work in [00:38:13] progress. I have a [00:38:14] ways to go. [00:38:15] Uh, what I would [00:38:16] share is like the [00:38:17] progress that I have [00:38:18] made and what has [00:38:19] worked thus far, [00:38:20] right? So [00:38:21] [00:38:22] When I was going to [00:38:23] therapy and, [00:38:24] and again, like, you know, you [00:38:25] talk to your therapist and maybe [00:38:26] he says, "Hey, yeah, it is an [00:38:27] audiobook." It's, it... [00:38:28] [00:38:29] By itself, [00:38:30] it's not that big of a [00:38:31] deal.
The issue is the [00:38:32] overall [00:38:33] picture, right? The picture [00:38:34] of this is [00:38:35] somebody who is so, [00:38:36] like, [00:38:37] maybe this is the [00:38:38] wrong word, but like [00:38:39] so afraid [00:38:40] [00:38:41] to not listen to a [00:38:42] podcast while [00:38:43] he's brushing his teeth that, [00:38:44] like, something [00:38:45] else is going [00:38:46] on here, right? Like, [00:38:47] let's go below [00:38:48] the surface a little [00:38:49] bit. [00:38:50] So as [00:38:51] we started to [00:38:52] dig, right, like [00:38:53] essentially what [00:38:54] we discovered [00:38:55] was this is [00:38:56] an [00:38:57] OCD type of [00:38:58] pattern, which is to [00:38:59] say like, you know, [00:39:00] 
When Entertainment Stops Being Fun and Becomes a Compulsion 🎧🎬🌀
Brian Sachetta: my therapist would be like, [00:39:01] "Okay, so well, [00:39:02] what movie did you watch [00:39:03] last night?"
Or, [00:39:04] "What book did you read last [00:39:05] week?" And I'd be like, "Well, I, [00:39:06] I watched these movies and [00:39:07] I wa- I listened to this [00:39:08] audiobook," whatever. [00:39:09] And he'd be like, [00:39:10] "Let me [00:39:11] ask you something. [00:39:12] Did you enjoy it?" [00:39:13] Most of the [00:39:14] times I'd be like, [00:39:15] "No, I didn't." [00:39:16] and he'd [00:39:17] s- he may even [00:39:18] say, [00:39:19] "Did you want [00:39:20] to watch that [00:39:21] movie? Did you want to [00:39:22] read that book?"
And I'd say, [00:39:23] most [00:39:24] of the time I'd say no.[00:39:25] 
[00:39:26] And so he'd be like, [00:39:27] you know, [00:39:28] OCD, right, like [00:39:29] obsessive compulsive [00:39:30] disorder, that [00:39:31] is a compulsion. [00:39:32] If you do the thing [00:39:33] and you don't actually [00:39:34] want to do it, [00:39:35] that is a compulsion, [00:39:36] right? So [00:39:37] what it real- [00:39:38] like the, again, [00:39:39] not saying I'm out of the [00:39:40] woods here, but like [00:39:41] the progress that I [00:39:42] have made [00:39:43] is in being [00:39:44] able to name that [00:39:45] compulsion and then [00:39:46] step back and be like, [00:39:47] "Okay, [00:39:48] be methodical [00:39:49] about my decisions.
[00:39:50] Actually make [00:39:51] decisions [00:39:52] rather than just being [00:39:53] impulsive." And [00:39:54] what that would look like [00:39:55] was, [00:39:56] you know... So I, I mean, [00:39:57] I could trace it back [00:39:58] to many [00:39:59] different situations and [00:40:00] years and [00:40:01] all that kind of thing. But [00:40:02] [00:40:03] let's say 10 [00:40:04] years ago, it'd be like, okay, [00:40:05] I'm just starting my [00:40:06] writing journey. [00:40:07] I'm starting my mental health [00:40:08] journey.
[00:40:09] I, uh, I wanna [00:40:10] learn as much as I [00:40:11] possibly can. I wanna [00:40:12] be a well-rounded [00:40:13] individual. [00:40:14] And so I'd pick up a book, [00:40:15] or I'd talk to [00:40:16] somebody and they'd be like [00:40:17] "Hey, have you [00:40:18] seen movie [00:40:19] XYZ?" And I'd be like, [00:40:20] "No, I haven't seen that. [00:40:21] Let me write that down." [00:40:22] And I wanted to just [00:40:23] become [00:40:24] cultured, you know, if you [00:40:25] will.
[00:40:26] And I'd [00:40:27] say slowly but [00:40:28] surely, that [00:40:29] pattern [00:40:30] grew legs [00:40:31] and maybe even [00:40:32] grew some other [00:40:33] things that, you know, weren't [00:40:34] good, right? And so [00:40:35] what ended up happening was [00:40:36] I'd watch a movie [00:40:37] and then, [00:40:38] you know, I'd talk to some people [00:40:39] and they'd be like, "Well, you've [00:40:40] seen that movie, but have you [00:40:41] seen this one?" And [00:40:42] the list would get [00:40:43] longer and longer, and [00:40:44] then I'd read a book, and [00:40:45] the book would reference [00:40:46] five other books [00:40:47] and be like, [00:40:48] "Best-selling mental [00:40:49] health book [00:40:50] XYZ."
And I'd write those [00:40:51] down, and I'd listen to [00:40:52] them all, and I'd be like, " [00:40:53] I have to do [00:40:54] this. I have to learn. [00:40:55] I have to..." You [00:40:56] know, it was, [00:40:57] it was a [00:40:58] way that I could dress [00:40:59] it up and justify [00:41:00] it, you know? 'Cause like [00:41:01] the thing that was [00:41:02] trickiest for me [00:41:03] was, and still is [00:41:04] at times, is [00:41:05] I'd sit there and I'd be [00:41:06] like, "This [00:41:07] isn't cocaine.[00:41:08] 
This isn't a [00:41:09] drug." You know what I mean? [00:41:10] Like it [00:41:11] should be fine. My body [00:41:12] shouldn't be freaking out [00:41:13] if I listen to another [00:41:14] audiobook, right? [00:41:15] The issue was [00:41:16] that, like, I [00:41:17] wasn't intentional with the [00:41:18] decisions, and so [00:41:19] in a way it was [00:41:20] [00:41:21] I don't know if [00:41:22] addiction is the right word, [00:41:23] but it was, it was [00:41:24] filling that same [00:41:25] hole that you [00:41:26] fill when you [00:41:27] have an addiction, if [00:41:28] that makes sense.[00:41:29] 
So what has [00:41:30] 
Filters, Intentional Choices and Blocking Off Every Waking Hour 🧭📆✅
Brian Sachetta: really helped [00:41:31] me and worked for me is [00:41:32] to be like, [00:41:33] step way the heck [00:41:34] back, [00:41:35] [00:41:36] kinda come up with some [00:41:37] filters, right? To say, [00:41:38] "Okay, if I [00:41:39] have the urge to [00:41:40] read an [00:41:41] audiobook or l- listen to an [00:41:42] audiobook," [00:41:43] ask myself, number [00:41:44] one, do I [00:41:45] actually [00:41:46] want to listen to [00:41:47] this? As in, [00:41:48] do I think I [00:41:49] would get real [00:41:50] enjoyment out of it?
[00:41:51] Would it be fun? [00:41:52] Not [00:41:53] necessarily like, [00:41:54] hey, oh, it'd be good [00:41:55] to read or [00:41:56] listen or [00:41:57] learn something. [00:41:58] And then [00:41:59] from there, [00:42:00] like be less [00:42:01] impulsive. So the other [00:42:02] issue, right, and, and [00:42:03] part of this is the [00:42:04] society we live in [00:42:05] is, you [00:42:06] know, it used to be that [00:42:07] if you wanted to read a [00:42:08] book, you had to go to the [00:42:09] library or you had to go to Barnes & [00:42:10] Noble, and that's a lot of [00:42:11] friction, right?
Get in your [00:42:12] car, drive down [00:42:13] there, pay for the [00:42:14] thing. Nowadays, [00:42:15] you go [00:42:16] onto-- Uh, like for [00:42:17] me, I go onto [00:42:18] Audible.com. I'm like, [00:42:19] "I'm out of credits. [00:42:20] Let me buy some [00:42:21] more credits." I [00:42:22] buy the credits. I buy [00:42:23] three or five, [00:42:24] and they're gone in [00:42:25] 60 seconds, [00:42:26] right? 'Cause I know what books I [00:42:27] was gonna buy. [00:42:28] That makes the [00:42:29] problem harder.
That [00:42:30] makes it easier for [00:42:31] me, [00:42:32] and all of us, to [00:42:33] be more [00:42:34] compulsive, right? And [00:42:35] then the last piece [00:42:36] is [00:42:37] when I stepped [00:42:38] back, after I made those [00:42:39] filters, after I [00:42:40] became more intentional with [00:42:41] my decisions, [00:42:42] I sat [00:42:43] down and I was [00:42:44] like, "Okay, [00:42:45] what are my actual [00:42:46] priorities and [00:42:47] what am I saying [00:42:48] that I wanna do with my [00:42:49] life versus what am I [00:42:50] actually doing [00:42:51] with my life?"[00:42:52] 
And [00:42:53] this is where [00:42:54] it gets a little ugly. [00:42:55] You know, and I, and I don't [00:42:56] mean necessarily... [00:42:57] Like I'm happy [00:42:58] to tell my story. It's, it's [00:42:59] not that ugly. I'm just [00:43:00] saying you have [00:43:01] to face your own [00:43:02] demons, and you have [00:43:03] to [00:43:04] be honest with [00:43:05] yourself and be like, "Oh, [00:43:06] crap, I'm not [00:43:07] doing what I said I was [00:43:08] gonna do." And so [00:43:09] I know, right?
Like [00:43:10] I look back and I'm like, [00:43:11] I've been [00:43:12] working on a [00:43:13] revised edition of my [00:43:14] first book, 'cause the book's [00:43:15] been out for [00:43:16] close to 10 years now and [00:43:17] I've learned things and my [00:43:18] writing style has [00:43:19] gotten better. I've [00:43:20] decided I'm [00:43:21] gonna improve the book, [00:43:22] right? And I've been [00:43:23] working, quote [00:43:24] unquote, working on [00:43:25] this [00:43:26] revision for a few years now, [00:43:27] you know?
And [00:43:28] people would ask me like, [00:43:29] "Where's the [00:43:30] book? Are you done yet?" [00:43:31] Whatever, and I'd be like, "I'm [00:43:32] so busy, I'm so busy, [00:43:33] I'm so stressed." [00:43:34] And at times I [00:43:35] was. You know, like I have a [00:43:36] full-time job that [00:43:37] isn't writing, [00:43:38] and at times [00:43:39] that's been a [00:43:40] 60-hour job. You know, that's [00:43:41] a lot of work. [00:43:42] But there's also been times [00:43:43] when it wasn't a [00:43:44] 60-hour job, [00:43:45] and the week goes [00:43:46] by and I [00:43:47] just wasn't intentional [00:43:48] with my time [00:43:49] and I'm watching another [00:43:50] movie 'cause it's the [00:43:51] easy thing to do, [00:43:52] right?
So what has [00:43:53] been really helpful [00:43:54] for me as of late [00:43:55] is [00:43:56] [00:43:57] Not-- I'm n- I'm not [00:43:58] trying to be [00:43:59] overly efficient. I'm [00:44:00] just trying to make [00:44:01] sure that I [00:44:02] actually make space [00:44:03] for the things that I care [00:44:04] about in my life, [00:44:05] which is to say I [00:44:06] go into my calendar [00:44:07] every week and I block [00:44:08] off [00:44:09] every waking [00:44:10] hour. And again, that's [00:44:11] not to say like, [00:44:12] podcast here, [00:44:13] brush teeth here, whatever.
[00:44:14] It's, it's just to be [00:44:15] like every hour [00:44:16] is accounted for. [00:44:17] That [00:44:18] might mean that I have an [00:44:19] hour on the [00:44:20] calendar that says [00:44:21] do nothing, [00:44:22] [00:44:23] relax, whatever. [00:44:24] But the most [00:44:25] important thing is [00:44:26] I put real [00:44:27] hours on the calendar [00:44:28] that say, [00:44:29] do the writing[00:44:30] 
and do not move [00:44:31] that block or if you [00:44:32] do, you have to [00:44:33] substitute, you know, you have to move it [00:44:34] around later [00:44:35] in the week.
You can't just give [00:44:36] it up entirely. And [00:44:37] so [00:44:38] yeah, that has been [00:44:39] kind of the journey that [00:44:40] I've been on the last [00:44:41] couple of years. It's [00:44:42] been hard at times 'cause [00:44:43] like you're in the [00:44:44] machine, you can't [00:44:45] see it, you know? [00:44:46] But when you step back, [00:44:47] you start to see it a little [00:44:48] more. [00:44:49] 
Technology, Emotional Avoidance and Apps Engineered to Hook You 📱🪝🌀
[00:44:50] 
Bruce Anthony: You're obviously [00:44:51] in technology, [00:44:52] and [00:44:53] technology is [00:44:54] so prevalent [00:44:55] in our everyday [00:44:56] lives. You talked [00:44:57] about, uh, being [00:44:58] on X a [00:44:59] lot, or Twitter. [00:45:00] I don't, I don't, I don't know [00:45:01] why I called it X. I know [00:45:02] it's... that's the name, but it's [00:45:03] Twitter. [00:45:04] You [00:45:05] talked about the [00:45:06] audiobooks, the [00:45:07] movies, and the thing [00:45:08] that I'm hearing [00:45:09] is, or, or what you [00:45:10] kinda hinted [00:45:11] towards is like you're [00:45:12] doing, you might be [00:45:13] doing all these things [00:45:14] to avoid.[00:45:15] [00:45:16] 
[00:45:17] Technology [00:45:18] makes it so that we [00:45:19] can [00:45:20] emotionally [00:45:21] avoid things [00:45:22] really easily. [00:45:23] I'm... [00:45:24] [00:45:25] Get on [00:45:26] Instagram and I [00:45:27] don't even realize I'm [00:45:28] getting on [00:45:29] Instagram. It's, it's, it's a [00:45:30] compulsion [00:45:31] now. [00:45:32] [00:45:33] Why do you think [00:45:34] that is? Why [00:45:35] do you think that we [00:45:36] use [00:45:37] technology to [00:45:38] emotionally [00:45:39] avoid, whether we're doing [00:45:40] it consciously or [00:45:41] subconsciously?[00:45:42] [00:45:43] [00:45:44] [00:45:45] [00:45:46] [00:45:47] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I mean, I think i- it's a pretty simple answer. I would say, one, it's [00:45:48] easy, it's accessible, [00:45:49] right? Like, [00:45:50] again, back to [00:45:51] the Barnes & Noble [00:45:52] example is, [00:45:53] uh, would you... Y- [00:45:54] y- in the same [00:45:55] vein, right? Is [00:45:56] would you rather get [00:45:57] up, go to the grocery [00:45:58] store, buy all the [00:45:59] ingredients, come [00:46:00] home, prepare [00:46:01] them, put the food in [00:46:02] the oven, cook [00:46:03] and eat, [00:46:04] or [00:46:05] open Uber [00:46:06] Eats, click a [00:46:07] button, and the food's coming [00:46:08] to your door, right?[00:46:09] 
So it's much [00:46:10] easier. Uh, I [00:46:11] think the other thing too is, [00:46:12] like, these different [00:46:13] apps and [00:46:14] technologies... [00:46:15] Look, like, I work at [00:46:16] a, a [00:46:17] technology company, and [00:46:18] I've worked at many of them, [00:46:19] right? Is like [00:46:20] w- my company and [00:46:21] every company out there [00:46:22] that is successful, [00:46:23] uh, [00:46:24] [00:46:25] essentially within these [00:46:26] products, right? Like, they [00:46:27] are, they are engineered [00:46:28] in such a [00:46:29] way, uh, as to [00:46:30] drive heavy [00:46:31] engagement, right?
[00:46:32] They're-- Every [00:46:33] single screen that you [00:46:34] go on, every button [00:46:35] that you tap, it's [00:46:36] all instrumented in [00:46:37] a way that [00:46:38] the [00:46:39] product managers or [00:46:40] the owners, the [00:46:41] stakeholders of the [00:46:42] app or the [00:46:43] different software [00:46:44] products, they [00:46:45] know where every user [00:46:46] is. They know [00:46:47] whether a [00:46:48] specific feature in the [00:46:49] app is successful [00:46:50] or not successful.[00:46:51] 
They [00:46:52] know which [00:46:53] of the features [00:46:54] is driving [00:46:55] engagement and which one is not, [00:46:56] therefore which one [00:46:57] to invest more [00:46:58] into and [00:46:59] which ones to cut [00:47:00] back on. And so [00:47:01] th- [00:47:02] that's all a way of [00:47:03] saying that, like, these [00:47:04] apps are [00:47:05] engineered to be [00:47:06] addictive. And [00:47:07] so if you think about [00:47:08] h- like, [00:47:09] it's not... [00:47:10] Here's the-- Like, [00:47:11] you combine those two [00:47:12] things, right?
The, the ease [00:47:13] of use and the [00:47:14] addiction. It's [00:47:15] not like, "Hey, I gotta go [00:47:16] drive six [00:47:17] hours to [00:47:18] go [00:47:19] get my fix on my [00:47:20] addiction." [00:47:21] I just have to open my [00:47:22] phone, and I'm already [00:47:23] at my desk. I'm already [00:47:24] on the couch. It's [00:47:25] very, [00:47:26] very easy. So [00:47:27] what I would [00:47:28] say here, right, is [00:47:29] like, I think a lot of [00:47:30] us, we are [00:47:31] hard on ourselves and we [00:47:32] beat ourselves up [00:47:33] for [00:47:34] using Instagram too [00:47:35] much, being on Twitter too [00:47:36] much, whatever.[00:47:37] 
Uh, look, it, [00:47:38] it's still like, I think [00:47:39] the, the [00:47:40] thing to pull out of [00:47:41] there is like, yes, [00:47:42] you do want to [00:47:43] try to change that [00:47:44] behavior and, [00:47:45] and, and hold onto [00:47:46] that. Don't throw that [00:47:47] away. Yet at [00:47:48] the same time, give [00:47:49] yourself some grace, [00:47:50] right? 'Cause these [00:47:51] are... Again, [00:47:52] you look at the most [00:47:53] valuable companies [00:47:54] in the world, right?
You [00:47:55] go on the stock [00:47:56] exchange and you look at [00:47:57] the, the market [00:47:58] cap of Meta and whatnot, [00:47:59] and you're like, [00:48:00] "Guess where all those products come [00:48:01] from?" Those [00:48:02] really, [00:48:03] really high market [00:48:04] cap companies. They know [00:48:05] what they're [00:48:06] doing. 
​
Bruce Anthony: [00:48:07] [00:48:08] [00:48:09] [00:48:10] [00:48:11] [00:48:12] [00:48:13] [00:48:14] You [00:48:15] reject the [00:48:16] idea of [00:48:17] everything will be [00:48:18] okay type of [00:48:19] mental health. [00:48:20] Why do you think that [00:48:21] message [00:48:22] misses men [00:48:23] [00:48:24] so often?[00:48:25] [00:48:26] 
Brian Sachetta: [00:48:27] I, I, I think it, it [00:48:28] misses most of [00:48:29] us, women [00:48:30] included, but men [00:48:31] specifically. Like, [00:48:32] we love... [00:48:33] You know, we take on [00:48:34] challenges, we are [00:48:35] realistic, we think [00:48:36] through problems and [00:48:37] whatnot, [00:48:38] and that, to [00:48:39] me, right, like that, [00:48:40] [00:48:41] the [00:48:42] idea of everything will [00:48:43] be okay, it's [00:48:44] [00:48:45] like it falls [00:48:46] on deaf ears 'cause you're [00:48:47] like, "Well, I'm out [00:48:48] in the real world [00:48:49] every day [00:48:50] getting punched in the [00:48:51] face."
You know? [00:48:52] And that's not to say [00:48:53] that, like, things can't [00:48:54] get better, but [00:48:55] to somebody who's been [00:48:56] struggling with [00:48:57] anxiety or depression or [00:48:58] whatever [00:48:59] condition for a long [00:49:00] time, they're like, [00:49:01] "Uh, look [00:49:02] at my reality. What [00:49:03] do you mean it's all gonna be [00:49:04] okay? Like, it's been [00:49:05] bad for a while," [00:49:06] right? And so [00:49:07] I think a lot of [00:49:08] folks, like, get [00:49:09] fed up with that message [00:49:10] where they're like, [00:49:11] "Look, life isn't all [00:49:12] rainbows and [00:49:13] unicorns.
Like, tell it how it [00:49:14] 
Why Everything Will Be Okay Can Feel Empty During Depression 🌧💬😔
Brian Sachetta: is." You know? And I [00:49:15] think people respect [00:49:16] the message [00:49:17] more if you were to [00:49:18] say, [00:49:19] [00:49:20] "It's difficult. [00:49:21] There's gonna be a lot of [00:49:22] ups, there's gonna be a lot of [00:49:23] downs. [00:49:24] If you find [00:49:25] certain things that help [00:49:26] you, you will [00:49:27] eventually get to a good [00:49:28] place." But, you [00:49:29] know, sort of the, like, [00:49:30] pray the [00:49:31] anxiety away, I think [00:49:32] very quickly you [00:49:33] realize that that [00:49:34] doesn't work.
You know? You live in [00:49:35] reality, and so [00:49:36] again, it falls [00:49:37] on deaf ears. I [00:49:38] think people, we've gotten [00:49:39] to the point, right, where, like, [00:49:40] there's so much BS [00:49:41] out there that [00:49:42] people really [00:49:43] value authenticity, and [00:49:44] part of that [00:49:45] authenticity is just [00:49:46] telling it like how, [00:49:47] telling it like [00:49:48] how it is, right? Where you're [00:49:49] like...
And it [00:49:50] doesn't have to be [00:49:51] overly negative. It just [00:49:52] has to be realistic [00:49:53] to say, [00:49:54] "This is how it is [00:49:55] today. It can definitely [00:49:56] get better, but I'm [00:49:57] not gonna [00:49:58] overlook or [00:49:59] sugarcoat the difficulty [00:50:00] that you may be go- [00:50:01] going through right now."[00:50:02] 
Bruce Anthony: Yeah, I probably [00:50:03] shouldn't have phrased that [00:50:04] question as mainly [00:50:05] men because I know [00:50:06] of [00:50:07] more than a [00:50:08] few females [00:50:09] [00:50:10] that [00:50:11] [00:50:12] need serious [00:50:13] therapy [00:50:14] and have gone to [00:50:15] therapists [00:50:16] and they're like, "I [00:50:17] quit that therapist." It's [00:50:18] like, "Why?" "Because they just [00:50:19] wouldn't fix it." I [00:50:20] said, [00:50:21] "That's, that's not [00:50:22] how therapy [00:50:23] works."
There is [00:50:24] no [00:50:25] just do this and [00:50:26] everything will be okay. [00:50:27] It's a process [00:50:28] and a lot of [00:50:29] times the [00:50:30] thing that you think [00:50:31] is [00:50:32] what's bothering you, [00:50:33] there's more [00:50:34] underneath there that you [00:50:35] need to discover, that you [00:50:36] need to tap [00:50:37] into. So like [00:50:38] you have to [00:50:39] do [00:50:40] the work [00:50:41] and the work is [00:50:42] [00:50:43] ugly, it's [00:50:44] messy, it [00:50:45] hurts, but [00:50:46] it's important [00:50:47] because that's the only [00:50:48] way that you get [00:50:49] better.
How Emotional Distance Helps Fuel the Male Loneliness Crisis 👥🧱💔
Bruce Anthony: [00:50:50] What [00:50:51] do... But [00:50:52] I do wanna stick [00:50:53] with men for a [00:50:54] quick second. [00:50:55] I've talked [00:50:56] often on this show [00:50:57] about the male [00:50:58] loneliness [00:50:59] epidemic and it is [00:51:00] a real [00:51:01] thing and I think it's [00:51:02] tied to, [00:51:03] uh, [00:51:04] men like me and [00:51:05] yourself [00:51:06] who grew up in an [00:51:07] era of [00:51:08] I like to call [00:51:09] toxic masculinity, [00:51:10] but are [00:51:11] now being in [00:51:12] touch with their [00:51:13] emotions [00:51:14] and [00:51:15] [00:51:16] realizing that the [00:51:17] things that they would've [00:51:18] [00:51:19] taken, [00:51:20] uh, [00:51:21] back in the day, a woman [00:51:22] going on and on and [00:51:23] back- backpack [00:51:24] through Europe for three [00:51:25] months, like we're not [00:51:26] doing that.
But [00:51:27] in not [00:51:28] doing that, [00:51:29] well, we're [00:51:30] eliminating some [00:51:31] suitors. [00:51:32] What do you think [00:51:33] about the male [00:51:34] loneliness epidemic [00:51:35] and what [00:51:36] do you think [00:51:37] could be [00:51:38] some answers for [00:51:39] men out there [00:51:40] to address [00:51:41] themselves and their [00:51:42] loneliness?[00:51:43] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, I [00:51:44] mean, if I [00:51:45] were, like, I don't [00:51:46] have an answer [00:51:47] for it, right? I, [00:51:48] I don't have a [00:51:49] diagnosis on it. But [00:51:50] you can look at [00:51:51] some things across [00:51:52] society that [00:51:53] probably [00:51:54] contribute to it, right? I mean, [00:51:55] I, I think [00:51:56] about the fact that in [00:51:57] general [00:51:58] you know, women tend [00:51:59] to be more [00:52:00] emotional, guys tend to [00:52:01] be more on the [00:52:02] rational side.[00:52:03] 
And [00:52:04] right, we 
Bruce Anthony: [00:52:05] Ooh, Brian, [00:52:06] be careful. More on the [00:52:07] rational side? [00:52:08] Ooh, I can [00:52:09] just see the [00:52:10] females in my [00:52:11] audience saying, "What? We're [00:52:12] rational." And that [00:52:13] might be the point he's [00:52:14] trying to make, but, [00:52:15] but [00:52:16] [00:52:17] logical.[00:52:18] 
Brian Sachetta: [00:52:19] Yes, I think that's a, I [00:52:20] think that's a good word, [00:52:21] uh, in place. I guess, [00:52:22] I guess, yeah, [00:52:23] if anything, men are [00:52:24] probably less [00:52:25] connected to their emotions [00:52:26] than women
are, you [00:52:27] know? So yeah, [00:52:28] good catch there. [00:52:29] [00:52:30] And I think, like, [00:52:31] being [00:52:32] disconnected from those [00:52:33] emotions and then [00:52:34] also thinking about [00:52:35] some of the [00:52:36] societal programming, right, [00:52:37] of going [00:52:38] back to the idea [00:52:39] that [00:52:40] in [00:52:41] 1998 or [00:52:42] 2001 or whatever it was, [00:52:43] right, that those, [00:52:44] those [00:52:45] messages of [00:52:46] machismo and just kinda [00:52:47] battle through it and, you [00:52:48] know, boys don't cry and [00:52:49] whatnot, right?
Like, [00:52:50] [00:52:51] w- [00:52:52] we all-- [00:52:53] [00:52:54] We [00:52:55] can obviously [00:52:56] relate [00:52:57] through shared [00:52:58] interests, [00:52:59] uh, and [00:53:00] experiences and whatnot, but [00:53:01] that only kinda [00:53:02] takes you so [00:53:03] far, right? They're like, [00:53:04] if you think about [00:53:05] what [00:53:06] relationships look like that are [00:53:07] based on that, [00:53:08] they're [00:53:09] more of like [00:53:10] acquaintances, [00:53:11] surface level [00:53:12] connections. You're like, "Oh, I went to [00:53:13] school with that person.
Oh, [00:53:14] I used to play [00:53:15] basketball with that person." [00:53:16] The real [00:53:17] relationship, if one [00:53:18] forms, [00:53:19] comes on a deeper [00:53:20] level, right, as you [00:53:21] start to connect [00:53:22] on that emotional [00:53:23] level. And so I think [00:53:24] if we play the [00:53:25] tape back and we're like, [00:53:26] okay, well, well, guys were [00:53:27] kinda told, [00:53:28] you know, not to [00:53:29] connect to their [00:53:30] emotions in, in one way or [00:53:31] another, whether it's [00:53:32] subliminal, [00:53:33] and also [00:53:34] didn't talk [00:53:35] about their emotions, [00:53:36] then like, you know, [00:53:37] their [00:53:38] [00:53:39] relationships are not gonna be as [00:53:40] deep as [00:53:41] somebody who does [00:53:42] connect on that [00:53:43] level.
And so [00:53:44] you play that forward and [00:53:45] you're like, okay, [00:53:46] obviously the [00:53:47] societal narrative [00:53:48] is starting to [00:53:49] change, and more [00:53:50] people are talking about their [00:53:51] emotions and their mental [00:53:52] health. But [00:53:53] you're, you're kind of... [00:53:54] [00:53:55] You're at a [00:53:56] disadvantage in terms of your [00:53:57] starting point if [00:53:58] you grew up in [00:53:59] that sorta [00:54:00] situation, right?
And so [00:54:01] I think that's a [00:54:02] really important [00:54:03] piece. I mean, there's other [00:54:04] pieces too, where it's [00:54:05] like, [00:54:06] uh, [00:54:07] depends on where you live in the [00:54:08] country, what [00:54:09] school you went to, what [00:54:10] friends you made in your [00:54:11] specific school and [00:54:12] all of that. But [00:54:13] yeah, like [00:54:14] for us [00:54:15] guys, right, I think we had [00:54:16] to undo or [00:54:17] overcome, and [00:54:18] for a lot of us we're [00:54:19] still in the process of [00:54:20] that, so [00:54:21] much of that [00:54:22] programming to be like, [00:54:23] "Oh, [00:54:24] I can, [00:54:25] I can say that [00:54:26] thing.
I can [00:54:27] talk about my [00:54:28] emotions," right? There's, there's [00:54:29] still situations [00:54:30] all the time where I'm [00:54:31] sitting there and I'm like, [00:54:32] [00:54:33] unknowingly my [00:54:34] eight-year-old self is [00:54:35] like, "Nope, you [00:54:36] can't talk about that." [00:54:37] You know what I mean? "You can't [00:54:38] speak up. You can't [00:54:39] say that [00:54:40] emotion." And [00:54:41] again, that just kinda [00:54:42] gets back to the point where you're [00:54:43] like, [00:54:44] well, if you never do-- I know [00:54:45] it's a risk, but if you [00:54:46] never do, then [00:54:47] you probably never [00:54:48] have that moment with [00:54:49] somebody where they're [00:54:50] like, [00:54:51] "Oh, [00:54:52] I experienced [00:54:53] that too."
[00:54:54] And then you're like, "Hey, I [00:54:55] guess we're friends now." You know [00:54:56] what I mean? So 
Bruce Anthony: Yeah [00:54:57] 
Brian Sachetta: that's a, challenge [00:54:58] that we face for sure.[00:54:59] 
Bruce Anthony: You've been [00:55:00] honest [00:55:01] that you [00:55:02] are not a [00:55:03] clinician [00:55:04] or [00:55:05] researcher, [00:55:06] but you've gone [00:55:07] through a lot of [00:55:08] therapy, you've [00:55:09] read a lot of books, [00:55:10] done a lot of [00:55:11] podcasts about mental [00:55:12] health, and you've [00:55:13] come to what [00:55:14] works for you. [00:55:15] [00:55:16] That's [00:55:17] different for everybody. [00:55:18] What would be [00:55:19] your [00:55:20] advice to [00:55:21] people out there [00:55:22] who are listening [00:55:23] to this, [00:55:24] watching it, [00:55:25] and [00:55:26] saying, "I've done the [00:55:27] same things [00:55:28] and, and it doesn't-- I [00:55:29] can't get to, I [00:55:30] can't get to the right [00:55:31] answer."
[00:55:32] What would be some of [00:55:33] the advice that you [00:55:34] would give to those [00:55:35] people to say, [00:55:36] "Maybe [00:55:37] that therapy isn't the [00:55:38] right... That form of [00:55:39] therapy isn't the right form of [00:55:40] therapy for you, [00:55:41] but don't give up [00:55:42] on the fight"?[00:55:43] 
Brian Sachetta: Yeah, [00:55:44] I guess [00:55:45] I'm trying to, like, [00:55:46] put it [00:55:47] all into my [00:55:48] mind and then [00:55:49] into my mouth right [00:55:50] now. I'm like, [00:55:51] okay, so let's [00:55:52] start with, like, the [00:55:53] ground level, which [00:55:54] is if [00:55:55] you are still in a [00:55:56] spot where you're like, "I'm [00:55:57] not okay," [00:55:58] or, "I'm [00:55:59] still struggling [00:56:00] mightily with this [00:56:01] condition," [00:56:02] then 
Finding the Hidden Root When Treatment Still Is Not Working 🔍🧠🪴
Brian Sachetta: there's [00:56:03] something going on [00:56:04] there that we still [00:56:05] need to uproot and [00:56:06] get to, right? [00:56:07] And [00:56:08] from that point, I would [00:56:09] say, okay, if you've [00:56:10] tried a lot of [00:56:11] different things, [00:56:12] then [00:56:13] you [00:56:14] haven't-- you just haven't [00:56:15] gotten to the root of [00:56:16] it just yet. [00:56:17] And [00:56:18] the real [00:56:19] challenge, right, is like, [00:56:20] you know, and i- [00:56:21] this is how I would phrase [00:56:22] it is, the work [00:56:23] that I do, I [00:56:24] say, look, I [00:56:25] went through my own [00:56:26] anxiety, depression, mental [00:56:27] health challenges, [00:56:28] and I said to [00:56:29] myself along the way, I [00:56:30] was like, "I [00:56:31] struggled a lot.[00:56:32] 
I'd love to help [00:56:33] people [00:56:34] struggle [00:56:35] less." As in, if I [00:56:36] struggled for a [00:56:37] decade, I'd love to meet [00:56:38] somebody where they are [00:56:39] and help them be in a [00:56:40] better place in six to [00:56:41] 12 months. You know, [00:56:42] reduce that [00:56:43] timeline down. [00:56:44] Am I going to [00:56:45] do that? I don't [00:56:46] know. Am I-- Is, [00:56:47] is that-- Is it [00:56:48] possible? Yes. Is it [00:56:49] gonna happen? I'm not [00:56:50] entirely sure.
But [00:56:51] I do know that I've [00:56:52] tried a lot of [00:56:53] different things [00:56:54] over the years, and I [00:56:55] know that a lot of other [00:56:56] folks have as well. [00:56:57] The real [00:56:58] difficulty and the [00:56:59] frustrating piece, right, is [00:57:00] for anybody on this [00:57:01] journey, myself, [00:57:02] yourself, somebody who's [00:57:03] listening, is [00:57:04] you can [00:57:05] try a heck of a [00:57:06] lot of stuff, [00:57:07] and you would [00:57:08] think that [00:57:09] after two [00:57:10] years, seven [00:57:11] years, 10 years, [00:57:12] you'd be like, "I'm [00:57:13] automatically [00:57:14] going to get there.
I'm [00:57:15] automatically [00:57:16] going to hit it." And [00:57:17] maybe you have tried [00:57:18] everything, right? But then [00:57:19] within those [00:57:20] subcategories, you're [00:57:21] like, "I went to [00:57:22] therapy, it didn't work." [00:57:23] And it, it, [00:57:24] it didn't, right? [00:57:25] That's your [00:57:26] experience of it. [00:57:27] At the same time, [00:57:28] right, like [00:57:29] even [00:57:30] therapy is such [00:57:31] a-- [00:57:32] There's so many different [00:57:33] forms of therapy.
[00:57:34] There are so many different [00:57:35] therapists out there. [00:57:36] I've [00:57:37] had a bunch of different [00:57:38] therapists, some effective, [00:57:39] some less effective, [00:57:40] right? And I think the [00:57:41] challenge is [00:57:42] we tend to [00:57:43] give a [00:57:44] global label to [00:57:45] something based on [00:57:46] our one or two [00:57:47] experiences with it, [00:57:48] right? Where we're like, [00:57:49] "I went to therapy. It [00:57:50] didn't work, therefore [00:57:51] therapy does not [00:57:52] work."
[00:57:53] And it's possible [00:57:54] that somebody's [00:57:55] personality is not [00:57:56] suited to [00:57:57] therapy in general [00:57:58] or the modality [00:57:59] that the therapist [00:58:00] uses. [00:58:01] But with any of [00:58:02] these tactics, I mean, [00:58:03] obviously some are [00:58:04] deeper than others, but [00:58:05] like, I'm like, okay, [00:58:06] yeah, if you tried breathwork and [00:58:07] it wasn't for [00:58:08] you, I think you could [00:58:09] probably move on from that [00:58:10] one.
But [00:58:11] something as deep as [00:58:12] therapy, right? Like it's [00:58:13] possible that maybe you [00:58:14] need to find a [00:58:15] different therapist, [00:58:16] take a different [00:58:17] angle, go a bit [00:58:18] deeper. Again, just to [00:58:19] circle back around on [00:58:20] what I was talking about at the [00:58:21] beginning is [00:58:22] if that feeling [00:58:23] is still there, if that [00:58:24] frustration of like, [00:58:25] "I'm still dealing with [00:58:26] this thing," is still here, [00:58:27] you haven't [00:58:28] hit the linchpin [00:58:29] yet.
And so [00:58:30] finding that [00:58:31] linchpin is the [00:58:32] most important [00:58:33] part. [00:58:34] The, the real challenge [00:58:35] is like [00:58:36] nobody [00:58:37] can go in and be [00:58:38] like, [00:58:39] "I can identify that [00:58:40] within you in five [00:58:41] minutes." The [00:58:42] closest thing, [00:58:43] honestly, would [00:58:44] be [00:58:45] Either a [00:58:46] complete stranger [00:58:47] who walks into your house [00:58:48] and sees [00:58:49] the interactions and the [00:58:50] behaviors and is like, [00:58:51] "You do that [00:58:52] thing.
That's strange," [00:58:53] right? 'Cause they are [00:58:54] foreign to the environment [00:58:55] and they are seeing it [00:58:56] in real time. [00:58:57] Or, [00:58:58] uh, [00:58:59] I don't know, a good friend, [00:59:00] right? Somebody who [00:59:01] has known you your [00:59:02] whole life and is [00:59:03] like, "I'm willing [00:59:04] to call [00:59:05] BS on this and be like, [00:59:06] 'Let's take a [00:59:07] pause. [00:59:08] I need to tell you [00:59:09] something that is hard to [00:59:10] hear.'"
Bruce Anthony: Mm-hmm. [00:59:11] [00:59:12] Yeah. Well, [00:59:13] Brian, that has [00:59:14] been very [00:59:15] informative [00:59:16] and very [00:59:17] educational, and, [00:59:18] uh, I wanna thank [00:59:19] you first for [00:59:20] coming on the show, [00:59:21] but [00:59:22] also for being [00:59:23] open and being [00:59:24] vulnerable. [00:59:25] Uh, I [00:59:26] know that is [00:59:27] difficult, [00:59:28] but I'm very [00:59:29] appreciative that you did it, so [00:59:30] thank you so much [00:59:31] for coming on the [00:59:32] show and, and sharing [00:59:33] your vulnerability [00:59:34] and your [00:59:35] knowledge, uh, [00:59:36] of mental health[00:59:37] 
Brian Sachetta: Thank you, [00:59:38] Bruce. A lot of great [00:59:39] questions and good [00:59:40] discussion overall[00:59:41] 
Bruce Anthony: [00:59:42] Absolutely Once again, [00:59:43] I wanna thank Brian for [00:59:44] coming on the show and [00:59:45] being so vulnerable. [00:59:46] It's really, [00:59:47] it's really cool when [00:59:48] people come on the show [00:59:49] and show their [00:59:50] vulnerability and, and [00:59:51] let us into their [00:59:52] life. I [00:59:53] think we [00:59:54] learn [00:59:55] more when we [00:59:56] learn about [00:59:57] the true [00:59:58] authentic selves of [00:59:59] other people. So [01:00:00] Brian, thank you so much for [01:00:01] coming on the show.[01:00:02] 
Uh, I wanna [01:00:03] encourage everyone watching [01:00:04] or listening to check [01:00:05] out Brian's [01:00:06] work. His Get [01:00:07] Out Of Your Head [01:00:08] book series takes an [01:00:09] honest look at [01:00:10] anxiety, depression, [01:00:11] chronic stress, and the [01:00:12] challenges so many [01:00:13] people face but rarely [01:00:14] talk about. If [01:00:15] today's conversation [01:00:16] resonated with you, I [01:00:17] highly recommend checking [01:00:18] out his books and learning [01:00:19] more about the work he's [01:00:20] doing.
You can find 
Why Familiar Pain Feels Safer Than the Discomfort of Healing 🌱⏳🔥
Bruce Anthony: more [01:00:21] information about [01:00:22] Brian and his [01:00:23] work on our [01:00:24] website, [01:00:25] [01:00:26] unsolicitedperspectives.com. Go [01:00:27] show him some love and [01:00:28] support the work that he's [01:00:29] doing. [01:00:30] Now, [01:00:31] before [01:00:32] we end, [01:00:33] I wanna leave you [01:00:34] with one final [01:00:35] thought. [01:00:36] One of the [01:00:37] biggest misconceptions [01:00:38] about mental health is [01:00:39] that healing is [01:00:40] supposed to happen quickly.[01:00:41] 
We live in a [01:00:42] world where almost [01:00:43] everything is instant. [01:00:44] We expect [01:00:45] fast answers, [01:00:46] quick results, and [01:00:47] overnight change. [01:00:48] Somewhere [01:00:49] along the way, we [01:00:50] started believing our [01:00:51] minds should work the same [01:00:52] way. [01:00:53] And let me give [01:00:54] you guys the [01:00:55] answer to that. [01:00:56] It doesn't. [01:00:57] Healing [01:00:58] takes time. [01:00:59] It takes honesty. [01:01:00] It takes [01:01:01] patience.
Some [01:01:02] days you'll feel like you've [01:01:03] made incredible [01:01:04] progress, and the very [01:01:05] next day you'll wonder if [01:01:06] you made any [01:01:07] progress at all. [01:01:08] That's part of the [01:01:09] process. [01:01:10] And if you've [01:01:11] tried therapy [01:01:12] before and walked away [01:01:13] thinking it didn't work, [01:01:14] don't let that be the [01:01:15] end of your story. [01:01:16] Finding the [01:01:17] right therapist is like [01:01:18] finding the right [01:01:19] doctor or [01:01:20] trainer or [01:01:21] teacher or [01:01:22] mentor.
Not every [01:01:23] person is going to be the [01:01:24] right fit. [01:01:25] Not every form of [01:01:26] therapy is going to [01:01:27] connect with you. But [01:01:28] that doesn't mean [01:01:29] therapy doesn't [01:01:30] work. It [01:01:31] means you haven't found what [01:01:32] works for [01:01:33] you. [01:01:34] Keep looking. [01:01:35] Maybe it's [01:01:36] traditional talk [01:01:37] therapy. Maybe it's [01:01:38] cognitive behavioral [01:01:39] therapy. Maybe it's [01:01:40] group therapy.
Maybe [01:01:41] it's meditation [01:01:42] or journaling or [01:01:43] faith, [01:01:44] exercise, or any [01:01:45] combination of all of those [01:01:46] things. [01:01:47] Whatever [01:01:48] healthy plan [01:01:49] helps you heal, [01:01:50] [01:01:51] commit to it. [01:01:52] And if that path [01:01:53] isn't h- helping [01:01:54] anymore, [01:01:55] don't quit on [01:01:56] yourself. [01:01:57] Find another one, [01:01:58] because your [01:01:59] mental health is worth [01:02:00] fighting for. [01:02:01] But here's [01:02:02] the uncomfortable part [01:02:03] people don't want to talk [01:02:04] about.[01:02:05] 
Too many people [01:02:06] would rather live [01:02:07] with familiar [01:02:08] pain than [01:02:09] face the discomfort [01:02:10] of healing. [01:02:11] We spend [01:02:12] years carrying [01:02:13] anxiety, [01:02:14] depression, [01:02:15] trauma, [01:02:16] grief, anger, [01:02:17] or shame [01:02:18] because [01:02:19] as painful as [01:02:20] it is, [01:02:21] it's become [01:02:22] familiar. We [01:02:23] know how to survive [01:02:24] with it. We [01:02:25] know what tomorrow [01:02:26] looks like if we [01:02:27] never [01:02:28] change. What scares us [01:02:29] isn't always the [01:02:30] pain. [01:02:31] Sometimes what [01:02:32] scares us is the [01:02:33] uncertainty of [01:02:34] becoming someone we've [01:02:35] never been before. [01:02:36] Healing [01:02:37] asks you to [01:02:38] confront the parts of [01:02:39] yourself you spent [01:02:40] years avoiding. [01:02:41] It [01:02:42] asks you to have [01:02:43] conversations you've been [01:02:44] running away from.[01:02:45] 
It asks you to [01:02:46] forgive, to [01:02:47] let go, [01:02:48] to be vulnerable, [01:02:49] to ask for [01:02:50] help, and [01:02:51] sometimes to admit [01:02:52] that the version of [01:02:53] you that survived [01:02:54] isn't the [01:02:55] version of you that's [01:02:56] going to heal. [01:02:57] Nobody can [01:02:58] do that work for [01:02:59] you. People [01:03:00] can love you, [01:03:01] they can encourage [01:03:02] you, they can [01:03:03] pray for you, [01:03:04] they can recommend a [01:03:05] therapist, [01:03:06] they can sit [01:03:07] beside you while you're [01:03:08] struggling.
[01:03:09] But eventually, [01:03:10] you [01:03:11] have to decide that [01:03:12] your peace is worth the [01:03:13] effort. [01:03:14] Because at the end of the [01:03:15] day, your [01:03:16] greatest [01:03:17] responsibility isn't proving to the [01:03:18] world how strong [01:03:19] you are, [01:03:20] it's becoming [01:03:21] healthy enough [01:03:22] that you no longer [01:03:23] have to pretend [01:03:24] who you [01:03:25] are. [01:03:26] Ladies and [01:03:27] gentlemen, I wanna thank you [01:03:28] for listening.[01:03:29] 
I wanna thank you [01:03:30] for watching, [01:03:31] and until [01:03:32] next time, [01:03:33] as [01:03:34] always, [01:03:35] I'll [01:03:36] holla 
[01:03:37] Woo. That [01:03:38] was a hell of a show. [01:03:39] Thank you for [01:03:40] rocking with us here [01:03:41] on Unsolicited [01:03:42] Perspectives with Bruce [01:03:43] Anthony. Now, before you [01:03:44] go, don't [01:03:45] forget to follow, [01:03:46] subscribe, [01:03:47] like, [01:03:48] comment, and [01:03:49] share our [01:03:50] podcast. Wherever you're [01:03:51] listening or watching it to it, [01:03:52] pass it along to your [01:03:53] friends. If you enjoy [01:03:54] it, that means the people [01:03:55] that you rock, we'll [01:03:56] enjoy it also.
[01:03:57] So share the [01:03:58] wealth, share the [01:03:59] knowledge, share the [01:04:00] noise. [01:04:01] For all those [01:04:02] people that say, [01:04:03] well, I don't have a [01:04:04] YouTube. If you have a Gmail [01:04:05] account, you have a [01:04:06] YouTube. Subscribe to our [01:04:07] YouTube channel where you can [01:04:08] actually watch our [01:04:09] video podcast and [01:04:10] YouTube exclusive [01:04:11] content. [01:04:12] But the real [01:04:13] party is on our [01:04:14] Patreon page [01:04:15] after Hours Uncensored [01:04:16] and talking straight [01:04:17] ish after Hours.
[01:04:18] Uncensored is another show [01:04:19] with my sister, [01:04:20] and once again, [01:04:21] the key word there [01:04:22] is uncensored. [01:04:23] Those are [01:04:24] exclusively on our Patreon [01:04:25] page. Jump [01:04:26] onto our [01:04:27] [01:04:28] [01:04:29] website@unsolicitedperspective.com for all things [01:04:30] us. That's where you can get [01:04:31] all of our audio [01:04:32] video, our [01:04:33] blogs. And even [01:04:34] buy our merch. [01:04:35] And if you really feel [01:04:36] generous and want to [01:04:37] help us out, you [01:04:38] can donate on [01:04:39] our donations [01:04:40] page.
[01:04:41] Donations go strictly to [01:04:42] improving our [01:04:43] software and hardware [01:04:44] so we can keep giving [01:04:45] you guys good [01:04:46] content that you can [01:04:47] clearly [01:04:48] listen to and that you can [01:04:49] clearly see. [01:04:50] So any donation [01:04:51] would be appreciative. [01:04:52] Most importantly, [01:04:53] I wanna say [01:04:54] thank you, [01:04:55] thank you, [01:04:56] thank you for [01:04:57] listening and [01:04:58] watching and supporting [01:04:59] us, and I'll [01:05:00] catch you next time.[01:05:01] 
Audi [01:05:02] 5,000 [01:05:03] [01:05:04] [01:05:05] [01:05:06] [01:05:07] [01:05:08] Peace.